Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Enrique Santa]

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1 minute ago, wlaidlaw said:

R lenses cheap?  No they're not. Some are very popular with videographers and the prices of many are greater than they cost new in period. The sought after lenses are the 35, 50 and 80mm Summiluxes, the 15mm and 19mm Elmarits, the 28-90 Vario Elmarit, the 21-35 Vario-Elmar and the various APO long lenses plus others. 

Wilson

Take a look a ebay, please and you will be done.

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[lct]

8 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

I feel like I'm talking to a wall...😁. Fuji Lenses or Sony lenses have plenty of camera bodies for use them and they are pretty alive systems. Leica apsc is a dead system, and everybody knows it. Ok you can use the lens in an SL  but it seems to my absurd to spend 6.000€ in a ff cam to mount in it a croped sensor cam. In five years all CL will be finishing their live cicle and the only way to sell the lenses will be to L mount ff users with a great depreciation...

Me a wall?... Why not after all  but you seem to underestimate the fact that modern FF cameras have crop modes allowing them to use crop lenses, especially L mount ones like Leica's but also Sigma's. You may feel absurd to spend 6,000€ on a crop camera but it could be perfectly normal a price for a compact SL camera accepting both FF and APS-C formats. Also the Sigma camera you seemed to be interested in is much less expensive and can use TL lenses as well. 

[adan]

Five stages of grief in the Kübler-Ross model.

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

[Enrique Santa]

My friend is still a very thin market and for the same resolution that CL ofers you have to go only to SL2 or FP L2.

Seriously I don't try to convince you I only think that perhaps you are a little optimist.

[grick]

34 minutes ago, lct said:

Kipon makes adapters like that (link). They are made for Leica M (not L) lenses to Fuji X-mount cameras. The lens shown on e**y is an M lens BTW (Elmar 50/2.8).

Thanks for the correction.

Greg

[M11 for me]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb lct:

Why would your Leica lenses worth nothing? They should keep their resale value much better than any Fuji or Sony lens if i judge by my own M and R lenses.

May I ask a question as I do not fully follow the discussion that is going on here:

- The Lenses for the CL are designed, engineered, calculated, manufactured for APS-C

- There is no other manufacturer producing APS-C cameras for these lenses. Panasonic L-mount cameras are FF

- As technology developes further within a few years the CL will be a completely outdated camera

Seen like that I can not understand how the lenses should have a second hand market when there are no cameras for them.

what do I oversee?

[lct]

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6 minutes ago, Enrique Santa said:

My friend is still a very thin market and for the same resolution that CL ofers you have to go only to SL2 or FP L2.

Seriously I don't try to convince you I only think that perhaps you are a little optimist.

I just plan to use my CL as long as i can and i will see what happens at Leica's and other members of the L alliance by then. If nothing happens, which would be curious but who knows?, there will always be time to make a decision.

[LocalHero1953]

6 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

May I ask a question as I do not fully follow the discussion that is going on here:

- The Lenses for the CL are designed, engineered, calculated, manufactured for APS-C

- There is no other manufacturer producing APS-C cameras for these lenses. Panasonic L-mount cameras are FF

- As technology developes further within a few years the CL will be a completely outdated camera

Seen like that I can not understand how the lenses should have a second hand market when there are no cameras for them.

what do I oversee?

The CL will be outdated in the same way as the M2-M4 and the Barnacks are outdated - no AF, no internal exposure meter - and yet they sell. The CL image quality can easily rival 35mm film image quality. The CL will remain capable of producing images that would be more than good enough for most photographers. The only question in my mind is whether it will continue to function, not whether it will be outdated.

I am currently using cameras dating from the 1930s to 2021. They all have their uses.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, M11 for me said:

May I ask a question as I do not fully follow the discussion that is going on here:

- The Lenses for the CL are designed, engineered, calculated, manufactured for APS-C

- There is no other manufacturer producing APS-C cameras for these lenses. Panasonic L-mount cameras are FF

- As technology developes further within a few years the CL will be a completely outdated camera

Seen like that I can not understand how the lenses should have a second hand market when there are no cameras for them.

what do I oversee?

You may wish to take a look at my post above (link). The novelty, so to speak, is that FF cameras are not FF cameras any more, or at least they are not FF-only. They are now both FF and APS cameras so that one can use them in "crop mode" i.e. like a mere APS camera with APS lenses. For more details you may wish to ask our colleagues using L-mount cameras i have no experience with aside from the CL.

[M11 for me]

Ok, I have checked your link. This seems completely odd to me. You might think of cameras linke the Q2 or recently the M11. Endeed this is true about the crop mode. But I would not like to go to such a direction with my equipment. But that is me. 

 

[lct]

1 minute ago, M11 for me said:

Ok, I have checked your link. This seems completely odd to me. You might think of cameras linke the Q2 or recently the M11. Endeed this is true about the crop mode. But I would not like to go to such a direction with my equipment. But that is me. 

It's just than neither M nor Q have an L mount i guess. 

[M11 for me]

vor 4 Minuten schrieb lct:

It's just than neither M nor Q have an L mount i guess. 

Of course. I just meant as a principle as these 2 cams have such a mode built in. I see your point. 

[Guest]

So a Kickstarter campaign for a APS-C camera body with the SL mount and full support including AF of existing lenses

built by… ?!

(or more forum noise - because kickstarter supporters have to make a downpayment).

 

Everything most other photo manufacturers have ever produced rapidly lost value over the years.

Extreme example: didn‘t Canon and Sony have many APS-C cameras? DSLRs and mirrorless, too?
Are you shedding a tear for the owners of Sony DSLR camera -yes, the Sony cameras with a mirror-?  Their camera system is discontinued, too.

Feed-back from Sony, Nikon, Canon APS-C eBay recent green = sold items prices would be interesting in the context of this thread. 
 

„I have Leica lenses (= APS-C SL) and they lose value!!“ 

As most everybody I have a car, a laptop computer and a mobile phone and their value diminish.
 

The manufacturers would be more than happy to redesign, improve and offer products, that sell well. 
But they all reached the conclusion, that with mobile phones‘ camera performance  leaping forward year after year (due to R&D costs spread over millions of sold units, universal use of the compact mobile phones) ,

concentrating on full format cameras is the way to stay viable over the next years. 

Edited April 12, 2022 by tri

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Enrique Santa said:

Take a look a ebay, please and you will be done.

I am totally aware of the R lens prices on eBay as I would like to get a 28-90 lens for my various R cameras and good ones are all around £3,000. Same thing with the 19mm Elmarit.

Wilson

[IkarusJohn]

On 4/11/2022 at 9:44 PM, rob_w said:

Just spent a day in London looking at cameras and working out next steps.  I came away very impressed with what Sony are doing.  Apologies to the better informed members of the forum for what I am about to share.  It was new to me.

Having used Leica for 40 years the only affair I had during that time was with a Canon DSLR back when it looked as if Leica had no digital future.  Then the M8 came along and I resumed the journey with Leica products: M8, M9, M240 and when manual focus became impractical, I switched to the CL system.  Sony I always dismissed, based largely on the mediocre legacy they acquired from Minolta. 

It seems that in recent years Sony have expanded and improved their system massively, so it is now considered the top choice by pro photographers I know.  Their camera bodies are compact, lighter than all the opposition (the SL2 is 50% heavier, BTW) and perform very well.  The lens system is greatly expanded and includes high end lenses that are universally praised, as well as compact lenses that are practical and light.  The E lens mount is available to the likes of Sigma, Zeiss and Tamron so they can provide full-function equivalents, just as in the L mount alliance.

Researching before the trip I was thinking of, say, an SL2 with a set of compact Sigma lenses to keep the weight and size manageable, with perhaps one of the SL primes for the most demanding requirements.   Afterwards it seemed to me that I could do the same with, say, the Sony A7R4, using the same Sigma lenses and a Sony G Master prime.

For that I get a compact body with class leading autofocus (the performance is amazing), IBIS, high end viewfinder, 60 Mpx croppable in camera, class leading high ISO performance, ... etc. Everyting I would ever have wanted in the CL2, available today (available two years ago in fact) at an affordable price.

I can still trade-in my CL system for half its new value, to contribute more than half the cost of changing to the Sony equivalent.  Has the time come for a divorce?

If you’re happy with the interface - buttons, menu etc - and the image quality, why not?  For myself, I accept that most of the top camera makers have good lenses and great cameras - you could take pretty much any of their best cameras and lenses and take fabulous pictures.

Edited April 12, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[jankap]

1 hour ago, adan said:

Five stages of grief in the Kübler-Ross model.

Denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance.

I was on a whisky fair 10 days ago. I am a consumer only. As an EU European I only look at Irish stuff of course.

[Mr.Prime]

4 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

If you’re happy with the interface - buttons, menu etc - and the image quality, why not?  For myself, I accept that most of the top camera makers have good lenses and greta cameras - you could take pretty much any of their best cameras and lenses and take fabulous pictures.

This is the hidden truth for the majority of us - our skills and opportunity for taking great photographs is the limiting factor that challenges us, not our equipment.

 

[jankap]

1 hour ago, M11 for me said:

May I ask a question as I do not fully follow the discussion that is going on here:

- The Lenses for the CL are designed, engineered, calculated, manufactured for APS-C

- There is no other manufacturer producing APS-C cameras for these lenses. Panasonic L-mount cameras are FF

- As technology developes further within a few years the CL will be a completely outdated camera

Seen like that I can not understand how the lenses should have a second hand market when there are no cameras for them.

what do I oversee?

Yes, you oversee the life expectancy. A lot of forum members are happy with their M8. Not to speak of those with M4, M6.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[M11 for me]

vor 6 Minuten schrieb jankap:

Yes, you oversee the life expectancy. A lot of forum members are happy with their M8. Not to speak of those with M4, M6.

well, well, well. I still wear the socks that I bought 30 years ago and I am still happy. At least in my example there was no technical progress in socks since that time. I still have to wash my socks.

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, tri said:

Are you shedding a tear for the owners of Sony DSLR camera -yes, the Sony cameras with a mirror-?  Their camera system is discontinued, too.

Sony gave them an ultimate A99 to play with 

Then Alpha lenses are still perfectly usable with AF with Sony APS-C and full frame mirrorless. 
The transition path is clear. No issue. 
Same for Canon EF-S to EF-M for APS-C and EF to RF mount for full frame. 
Nikon F mount to Z mount. Both exist in APS-C and full frame flavour. 
 

TL will not longer exist. Only as an imperfect match of APS-C cropped from full frame body. 
 

 

So with Sony, Canon and Nikon. You can still use old APS-C DSLR lenses on APS-C mirrorless bodies without performance penalty at all. 
 

I should add Olympus 4/3 DSLR lenses are fully compatible with m4/3 mirrorless body. 
 

However TL will join Nikon 1 and Pentax Q graveyard of dead end solutions