Leica APS-C -- No more!

[lct]

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8 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

While discontinuing a product line is not in the same order of magnitude to those disasters, it will leave a scar on Leica’s business

Some bad memories at least. The amount of money involved in R gear was often important then. I owned a dozen R lenses myself for instance but the R demise was inevitable obviously.  Was in march 2009 that Leica announced the R demise officially. They wrote that they were « working intensively to enable a generational change in the existing R system » then but they probably could not tell the same nowadays. The kind of news Leica could announce, like a compact FF solution, would be premature i guess but i have no info about that. 

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[nicci78]

At least we know that Leica is ready to throw us under the bus, once not profitable enough. 

[Viv]

I have followed this discussion, on and off, with some interest.

My interest stems from the fact that I have owned a Leica M9 and currently use both the Q2 and the CL.

I have come to the conclusion that I don't care what happens to the CL, or to Leica for that matter.

I will continue to use my CL and my three lenses for as long as the camera functions. I am, in any event, well-served for APS-C by by my extensive Fuji X system.

I am certain that I will never buy another Leica camera or lens. I don't need a Q3 or a CL2.

If I decide to buy a rangefinder camera, it will be the Pixii - the Leica M11 is not worth the asking price. I will use it with Zeiss ZM lenses.

If Zeiss ever produced a digital version of the wonderful Ikon film rangefinder I would be first in line to buy it. My experience with the Ikon was marvellous and inspirational.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Viv

[Boojay]

Do other camera manufacturer's make big announcements at the end of the line, I don't know if they do.  This thread has just been driven by hope, now disappointment, with a little anger thrown in here and there.

In one way I'm sad that there is no CL2 to look forward to, in another maybe I will celebrate having spent my last £ with Leica🙃.  Not because I'm annoyed or disappointed, just that now I can use my CL hopefully for a few more years, with a pared down set of AF lenses and some favourite M lenses, after all that was my intention in the beginning, it's still a wonderful camera, great for travel and everyday photography.

Totally my own fault that I then got caught up with the whole L mount thing and went on to the SL2 and FF AF lenses, wanting to believe I was now in a system that could do it all.   

All the situation with the CL and Leica's plan (or lack of) has done for me is make me look more carefully at what I have and what works best for me, and it was easy then to step away, SL2 and SL Summicrons, larger L mount lenses, now all gone.  No doubt they are beautiful tools, but no longer right for me.  

I'm sure this section of the forum will continue on for some time, I feel like I have made friends here😉.

Oh dear, just remembered, still have to give Leica quite a lot of £'s given the repair quote for my CL replacement of one little knob😦.  Still, no regrets at having bought a second copy of the CL, it would have driven me mad to have been without one this long, minimum 3 months turnaround, another reason Leica can be hard to stick with if you're anything other than a deep pocketed hobbyist who values aesthetics over function.

Cheer up everyone, it's only a camera, plenty more out there.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[nicci78]

20 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So sorry to hear that all your Leicas have suddenly stopped working, and you can no longer take any photos.
I can read the extreme distress in your post.

They still work perfectly of course. The lack of perspective for any future firmware update and the certainty of no new TL lens forever is very daunting. 
 

An obscure CEO named S. Jobs once said that customers don’t need to be faithful to any brand. However every brand has to be faithful to their customers. 
 

Leica doesn’t care about us. So I won’t care about them. And won’t support them anymore. 

[LocalHero1953]

I buy Leica stuff because I like it, not because I am faithful to the brand or because I want to support them.

For the same reason I'm not going to stop buying any of their stuff simply because they don't give me one thing that I want.

[nicci78]

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Stopping half a lens mount is not a tiny detail. 
Especially after stopping a whole decades old mount 8 years ago. 
History is repeating once again.
Leica is certainly capable of stopping the whole L-mount if sales are too low. 
I am talking about a company who has stopped M line-up once ! Crazy management. They are giving up too easily. 
 

The whole TL lenses line up is not cheap. And hearing Leica stores salesmen saying that SL2 is THE solution, is depressing. 
 

TL lenses will have a limited repairability life span. How long before Leica will drop any support ? 5 years more or less ? Those AF lenses won’t be fixed by third parties…

 

How to trust Leica for any new product line ? 
I am pretty sure that Leica can stop Q if Q3 were a failure. 
They don’t care, when they should. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by nicci78

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, Boojay said:

Do other camera manufacturer's make big announcements at the end of the line, I don't know if they do

Yes:

https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/canons-flagship-dslr-will-be-its-last-as-mirrorless-cameras-take-over/

"Canon's EOS-1D X Mark III will be the Japanese company's last top-end DSLR as Canon moves its product line toward mirrorless cameras. That's the word from Chairman and Chief Executive Fujio Mitarai in a Tuesday interview in the Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun and confirmed by Canon."

[eibenbaum]

i can not imagine,Leica leave us TL Cl users standing in the rain, because the R-desaster was desastrius for Leica and their customers.What i can imagine is,Leica brings a Q in L-mount with two modes for APSc and FF. like Sony.so you can use all lenses as before.

[Ivar B]

1 hour ago, eibenbaum said:

i can not imagine,Leica leave us TL Cl users standing in the rain, because the R-desaster was desastrius for Leica and their customers.What i can imagine is,Leica brings a Q in L-mount with two modes for APSc and FF. like Sony.so you can use all lenses as before.

I also feel some anger here - it is annoying to put it mildly that an entire camera system is abandoned. However - should we give up all hope? Is it out of the question that one day Leica will return? APS-C makes sense. And if not Leica - I hope someone else will. We have seen that Sigma develops new lenses for APS-C all the time, but I guess that L-mount may make up a minor share of these lenses. 

[nicci78]

4 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Yes:

https://www.cnet.com/tech/computing/canons-flagship-dslr-will-be-its-last-as-mirrorless-cameras-take-over/

"Canon's EOS-1D X Mark III will be the Japanese company's last top-end DSLR as Canon moves its product line toward mirrorless cameras. That's the word from Chairman and Chief Executive Fujio Mitarai in a Tuesday interview in the Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun and confirmed by Canon."

Be careful : Canon only announced that 1D-X is the last flagship DSLR. It does not mean the end of all DSLR. 
 

EF mount is now a decades old mount. R cameras can use them as a native Camera with an adaptor. 
 

There is a clear transition path. 
 

With Leica, customers did not even get any communication. Respect is the minimum.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by nicci78

[nicci78]

13 hours ago, lct said:

Was in march 2009 that Leica announced the R demise officially. They wrote that they were « working intensively to enable a generational change in the existing R system

The “solution” only came in 2013 with the M typ 240 with R-Adaptor-M & EVF 2  & multifunction grip. 
Too late, many R users already sold their whole system. 
 

And replacing SLR with rangefinder with external EVF is not really an elegant replacement. 
The real digital R only came in 2015 with SL and über expensive R-Adaptor-L. 
 

Should we wait 4-6 years for a proper TL/CL replacement? 
 

Fun fact CL + Elmarit-TL 18mm were assigned the task to please X cameras owners. Guess what ? It does not really work. 28mm is not 35mm and it is still bigger than X2… 

[Mr.Prime]

I simply look at what they have to offer and decide if I want it enough to part with my $. And if they are asking for a lot of $ then I'm going to be more careful about the decision. I will look at the reputation and quality of the product, it's likely re-sale value, how much use and pleasure I will get from it as well as a sense that the product line is going to receive ongoing investment. Without some faith in latter I'm going to be careful how I spend my $. 

It just so happens that Leica doesn't make anything that reaches that bar right now but my experience with the CL (now sold) has opened my eyes to the use of m-mount lenses on a digital body and for the first time in years I am looking at new digital camera bodies from the likes of Fuji, Nikon, Canon and Sigma. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, nicci78 said:

Be careful : Canon only announced that 1D-X is the last flagship DSLR. It does not mean the end of all DSLR. 
EF mount is now a decades old mount. R cameras can use them as a native Camera with an adaptor. 
There is a clear transition path. 

Canon was very clear from the beginning and that's very good of them. One year before that 1D-X announcement, they had also announced well in advance that there would not be any new lens developed for the EF mount:

https://community.usa.canon.com/t5/EF-RF-Lenses/Canon-No-new-lenses/m-p/294013

To sum it up:

2020: Canon announces no new EF lens is in the work. RF is the future

2021: Canon announces 1D-X is the last flagship DSLR, RF is the future

2022: RF is the future, but you can still use EF lenses with full autofocus via an adapter. 

Now compare that with what Leica is doing. 

[Simone_DF]

22 hours ago, lct said:

S, SL, M, and Q make 4 eggs plus PanaLeicas. Any need for a 5th or 6th egg? Yes if it earns money but otherwise... 

The S is on life support. The only update in the last 4 years was the same body but with a different sensor. 

The SL is also on the edge. It's no secret the SL2/SL2-s didn't sell well. The SL3 might be the turning point, or maybe not.

That leaves the Q and the M, which are successful but also have a limited appeal for one reason or another. Not enough diversification = you can stay afloat, but you won't grow. Something goes bad? You go down.

[Mr.Prime]

They need a more affordable M to support new entry customers and their line of m-lenses, an EVF M at half the price of the 'real' M is the obvious solution. To me, it's so obvious that I'm expecting to see it. It may impact sales of the 'real' M if they make it too cheap or fail if they make it too expensive.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[lct]

2 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Should we wait 4-6 years for a proper TL/CL replacement? 

Depends on what you mean by "TL/CL replacement". If you mean another APS-only camera it will never happen i fear. Makes more sense to design a compact FF camera usable in crop mode nowadays. If i were an armchair CEO i would simply update the current SL line  in a more compact size, the same way as Leica used to do with compact R4 to R7 cameras in the eighties, but managing camera companies is not my speciality by far.

[Mr.Prime]

why update the SL if you aren't going to support the L-mount.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[lct]

16 minutes ago, Mr.Prime said:

why update the SL if you aren't going to support the L-mount.

Leica quits supporting the L mount really? Never heard of this sorry...

Edited April 7, 2022 by lct

[Mr.Prime]

It's an extension of the thought that they are retrenching to focus on what has been successful, the M and Q. 

 

Perhaps the future of the L mount for Leica is the rumour of a Q-L

Edited April 7, 2022 by Mr.Prime