Leica APS-C -- No more!

[nicci78]

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CL system were half the price half the size of SL system. It got its place in the line up. 
 

Now what ? 5.5K€ entry price for the Q. Really ? It will be very hard for Leica stores. 
 

D V C Lux line up of fake Leica won’t be sufficient. 
Have you seen the massive IQ difference between D-Lux 7 vs CL + TL 18-56 ? 
We need more made in Germany Leicas not less 

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[lct]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

What's the point in trying to sell a mirrorless twice (or thrice?) as expensive as the competition?

Déjà vu as far as M cameras can be considered mirrorless at least. I spent about 9,000 € for my M11 and accessories. But nowadays nobody wants to pay twice or thrice as much than the competition for a crop camera. I mean nobody but you, me and other CL/TL supporters of course. Not enough to justify a new crop camera now that compact FF cameras can be used in crop mode with both FF and crop lenses like L's and TL's. But I bore everyone with my drivel sorry .

Edited May 21, 2022 by lct

[Mr.Prime]

Just one or two of the mainstream guys need to take their mirrorless bodies and give it the feel of a rangefinder focus option using electronic simulation and we’ll have something to use with our M glass and old eyes at a lot less coin than an M11. Leica gets pushed into an ever smaller niche until poof! … sold to the highest bidder, somebody who has a plan to extract the most value out if the brand. Who? Well the car companies usually go dual-brand, for example, Toyota have Lexus, Honda have Acura etc. Perhaps Leica could be a bolt-on higher margin brand for Fuji. All future Leica cameras will then be Fuji’s with premium materials and features. R&D costs will be shared. This will then trigger a race for Fuji's competitors to follow suit, perhaps one will make a pitch for Voigtlander, just like we saw Zeiss go. So the end of the CL carries that extra concern, that Leica gets pushed further into a niche. Perhaps a rumoured lower priced Q will be their attempt to fight back? Or a rumoured lower priced FF? 

Edited May 21, 2022 by Mr.Prime

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, lct said:

But nowadays nobody wants to pay twice or thrice as much than the competition for a crop camera.

Have you really checked the APS-C market prices? A brand new Fuji X-Pro is 2000€, more expensive than a A7III or other full frame offerings.

I bet the new 40mp Fuji XH2 will break the 2000€ price barrier, whenever it will be released 

[frame-it]

Just now, Simone_DF said:

 

I bet the new 40mp Fuji XH2 will break the 2000€ price barrier, whenever it will be released 

but the xh1 had better specs than the CL.........so the fuji price is ok

[lct]

13 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Have you really checked the APS-C market prices? A brand new Fuji X-Pro is 2000€, more expensive than a A7III or other full frame offerings.

I bet the new 40mp Fuji XH2 will break the 2000€ price barrier, whenever it will be released 

Fuji doesn't make full frame cameras as you know. I hope them all possible success but the 24MP CL was selling for 2,500€ and some good people here were asking for IBIS as if it were not expensive enough. BTW, for those interested, the CL is now sold for 2,000€ at Lecuit but there is only one copy available while i write.

[bags27]

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Attempts to understand Leica's actions are always going to be--sorry for this!--through a glass darkly.

The fact that Leica stopped, not only producing new ones, but even doing runs of existing TL lenses a couple of years ago suggests that the decision might have been made a lot earlier than we thought. I suspect the enormous and unexpected success of the Q killed the CL. Although hardly at an entry level price, it is a bridge to the other cameras. Most people trying out Leica for the first time were more attracted to it. Its limitations (fixed lens) actually might have worked in its favor, for it reduced complexity for the aspirational photographer. It is much less intimidating that confronting an entire camera system.

Leica may yet regret this decision if the economy turns on the worst case scenario--several years of stagflation and a dreary stock market. They may yet want a lower priced camera body to offer.

Edited May 21, 2022 by bags27

[nicci78]

47 minutes ago, lct said:

Fuji doesn't make full frame cameras as you know. I hope them all possible success but the 24MP CL was selling for 2,500€ and some good people here were asking for IBIS as if it were not expensive enough. BTW, for those interested, the CL is now sold for 2,000€ at Lecuit but there is only one copy available while i write.

IBIS costs nothing

It is present into the cheapest m4/3 and cheapest Pentax K DSLR for years. 
Just a sensor sitting on a mobile plate with a couple of magnets. 
Despite IBIS, SL2-S is sold at a lower price than SL ever was. 
IBIS is also a very compact tech. It can be used inside über tiny GR III 

Edited May 21, 2022 by nicci78

[charlesphoto99]

I think part of the problem is the nature of luxury goods and discretionary spending, and the CL just fell too much in the middle. If somebody is camera shopping on a budget, they aren't even going to look at Leica, no matter what they have to offer. If one is ok spending mid-four figures on a camera, then many will just say fug it and throw in a few extra $K for an M or SL.Once one is at that point of ability to spend, may as well go all the way and get what one really wants (and is somewhat future proof/expandable). The CL made/makes a lot more sense to M owners as the lenses work well on it. Much less sense to those buying into a camera system for the first time. As a CL owner myself from last year (kind of a stupid impulse buy while my M10 was in the shop), it is barely used compared to my M's, and I just couldn't understand/justify the price of the TL lenses except for the kit 18, and I think too many others felt the same for the line to continue. 

[lct]

1 minute ago, nicci78 said:

IBIS costs nothing

It is present into the cheapest m4/3 for years. 
Just a sensor sitting on a mobile plate with a couple of magnets. 
Despite IBIS, SL2-S is sold at a lower price than SL ever was. 
IBIS is also a very compact tech. It can be used inside über tiny GR III 

I envy you to find those technical things that simple. There was no room enough for IBIS in the M11 body and as far as the CL was concerned, IBIS and weather sealing required a larger and more expensive body. Interesting to read Jonathan Slack about this (link). Some good LUF members were well aware of that and were even claiming that they would not mind to get a bigger CL2. To which some other not-too-bad LUF member argued that the size of the CL was yet on the higher side compared to other compact cameras (link). Leica did not need any further reason to abandon the idea apparently. Main reason is expensive crop cameras don't sell IMHO but i'm no Leica. 

[nicci78]

If IBIS can be add inside tiny GR III without increasing its size. 
It is absolutely possible to do it inside way bigger CL. 
GR III has IBIS, APS-C sensor, leaf shutter and retractable lens inside the same body as former tiny 1/2.5“ sensor GR Digital IV at the cost of pop-up only flash !!! 
And we are talking about 2016 technology! Ricoh put the guts of Pentax K-70 inside GR III. 
Just imagine what we can do in 2022. 
 

About weathersealing. CL and Q share the same belt ! Only height differ. 
Q is just a little bit taller. 
Q2 offers weathersealing inside the exact same body size as the Q ! 
which means that making weathersealed CL would have been possible inside the same size. 
 

Please don’t think that such or such is impossible. After all engineers are here to solve such trivial problems. A couple of toric joints will not increase size. Same for a couple of magnets. 

What about R&D ? Ricoh imaging has the same revenue as Leica Camera AG. Around 200 millions euros per year. 
What Ricoh Pentax can do. Leica can too. 
 

Now today the question is moot. Leica deserted the APS-C not because of technical issue. But because of lack of marketing willingness to pursue.  
 

BTW : Sony A6600 exists for years. It has everything: IBIS, incredible   AF, EVF and weather sealing inside a body small than CL with its handgrip. 
Really no excuse for CL2 having all features inside the same size  

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Edited May 21, 2022 by nicci78

[Anakronox]

An old coworker of mine had a proverb he’d bring out from time to time: “Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn’t have to do it himself.”

[oldwino]

10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Now what ? 5.5K€ entry price for the Q. Really ? It will be very hard for Leica stores. 

Not really. The CL wasn’t selling anyway, so it’s existence (or not) doesn’t make any difference. 
in fact, it may be a help to the Leica shops, who now don’t have to carry inventory on a camera and lenses that don’t sell.

Edited May 21, 2022 by oldwino

[jaapv]

Strange - so many  CLs on this forum... All stolen?

1 hour ago, oldwino said:

The CL wasn’t selling anyway,

 

[oldwino]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Strange - so many  CLs on this forum... All stolen?

 

Ummm, no.

Would Leica discontinue a product that was selling well?
Regardless of how we here on this Leica-centric forum think the CL was selling, and regardless of how many of us bought one (myself included)…again, would Leica discontinue a product that was selling well?

Is that clearer to you?

[elambo]

3 hours ago, oldwino said:

Not really. The CL wasn’t selling anyway, so it’s existence (or not) doesn’t make any difference. 
in fact, it may be a help to the Leica shops, who now don’t have to carry inventory on a camera and lenses that don’t sell.

What kind of trouble is it to stock a camera that isn't their best seller? Though, fwiw, the day I bought my CL the salesperson had already sold to two others, and it was only noon.

[Le Chef]

If you know how many units you sell a month and you know how long it takes for a Leica to restock, then that’s how much stock you need. Anything more than that and you’re giving money away.

[Foxtwo]

On 5/18/2022 at 1:17 PM, Louis said:

Right!

I even received some unfriendly comments as if it was me who decided to discontinue CL; I  shared it to the forum because I thought it would be useful for some to have a heads-up! ... I am also a CL user and love my camera; as much as I am not happy at all to see it discontinued. But I will use it as long as it works!  

Not your fault, but “It’s over man, Wermer dropped the Big One…” 😉

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Hallo,

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[nicci78]

8 hours ago, Anakronox said:

An old coworker of mine had a proverb he’d bring out from time to time: “Nothing is impossible for the man who doesn’t have to do it himself.”

But it has been done before. So it is indeed possible. Nobody talked about sci-fy tech for CL2. IBIS and weathersealing are old proven technologies. 

[nicci78]

The real problem of CL is TL2. Leica has divided APS-C ressources in two. 
So each of their sales looks bad. People don’t know which one to choose. 
It has been a mess for years : X or T ? Then TL2 or CL ? 
 

M line up it easy : M11 or M10 Monochrom
Q ? Q2 or Q2 Monochrom. 
SL ? SL2 or SL2-S