Leica APS-C -- No more!

[LocalHero1953]

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5 hours ago, tritentrue said:

But had it been the 6-week-old Visoflex, Leica told me that I would have to replace it myself, as they are not repairable and not covered by warranty!

 

Is the retailer not obliged to provide a warranty (repair/replacement) in your jurisdiction? I thought most places had that in basic consumer protection legislation.
(Which does not make Leica's response any more acceptable!)

[idusidusi]

3 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Is the retailer not obliged to provide a warranty (repair/replacement) in your jurisdiction? I thought most places had that in basic consumer protection legislation.
(Which does not make Leica's response any more acceptable!)

That would be my thinking. As far as I know Switzerland has such protection.

[tritentrue]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Is the retailer not obliged to provide a warranty (repair/replacement) in your jurisdiction? I thought most places had that in basic consumer protection legislation.
(Which does not make Leica's response any more acceptable!)

Most of southeast Asia is weak on consumer rights.  Camera gear is warranted only by the manufacturer; and in the few instances I've needed service from Canikony,  thankfully they have honored their warranties.

Standard front-line customer service response locally is to blame the customer.  In the instance with Leica Camera Asia Pacific, which I wrote about elsewhere in the forum some years ago, they claimed that corrosion on the hot shoe of the few-months-old camera was evidence of misuse on my part.  The repair estimate was $535.  Only after I appealed to Wetzlar was it repaired under warranty. 

As for the Visoflex, they found corrosion but said they could do nothing because it was still working.  It was the salesman at Leica MBS, where I bought the camera, who told me that "accessories" such as the Visoflex, correction diopter lenses, etc.are sold with no warranty.  I still have the e-paper trail of the whole saga.

LCAP's attitude is illustrated in the attached excerpt from a recent local Leica store receipt:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Le Chef]

The manufacturer sets parameters for material quality, cost and failure rate with the supplier. The manufacturer also inspects product from the production line independent of supplier quality control checks. It should not matter where the item is produced if all of that has been done properly. Witness Apple iPhones.

[IkarusJohn]

You get the same nonsense with “Global Warranties”, and local authorised dealers not honouring warranties because the product was bought in another country.  Most jurisdictions have consumer protection legislation, and Leica honours its warranties wherever you bought the product …

[RSH-Photo]

23 hours ago, Le Chef said:

Mercedes Benz for a long time would design and build cars for excellence, with little regard for cost. At some point in the 80’s they understood that they were pricing themselves out of the market and that they needed cheaper models that would encourage younger buyers to Mercedes. As part of that process learned from other manufacturers, particularly the Japanese that identify price points where you can compete and than reverse engineer  all aspects of that model down to the cost of an individual washer. 
 

You can have both excellence, margin and affordability if you do it this way. I wonder if Leica’s managment used these lessons when developing the T/TL/TL2/CL APSC models?

Well said.

My first Leica decades ago was the film CL manufactured with Minolta. It was an excellent camera in many ways, the only weak point was the meter which I had to have repaired twice (and I didn't like the neck strap configuration that followed the design of the M5). The 40 mm Summicron lens was a winner. Minolta marketed its own version of the camera and went on to develop and produce a second version with automatic metering but unfortunately Leica didn't use it to produce a CL2. This lower-cost alternative to the M line was abandoned. Now it seems Leica history is repeating itself -- a lower cost interchangeable lens CL model is being abandoned after only one generation. Your Mercedes analogy is right on in highlighting how Leica is missing an opportunity for photographers who want a lower-cost alternative to the M digital line.

[Simone_DF]

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On 3/26/2022 at 4:28 AM, Le Chef said:

pricing themselves out of the market

It all depends on what you consider your target audience, and I'm afraid for Leica it's not photographers.

I'm in Bangkok right now. There's a Leica store in a luxury mall that has Hugo Boss, Comme des Garçons and Furla stores.

There's also huge mall next door, one for people with average wallets. It has 3 camera stores inside, with some good equipment to be found. Leica decided not to open there, where a photographer might go to buy his new Fuji/Sony/Canon, and while there maybe pay a visit to the Leica store and try a M to see why people spend so much money for a M11, but in a mall where people with plenty of disposable income go to buy a 1200+ pair of Jimmy Choo shoes.

[tritentrue]

12 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

It all depends on what you consider your target audience, and I'm afraid for Leica it's not photographers.

In 2022, that says it perfectly.

I assume the shopping venues to which you refer are Gaysorn and Central World?  

Your post puts into words exactly what I've been thinking for the past few months, better than I could have said it myself.

As a regular patron of the 7/11 at the lower basement level of Gaysorn whenever I'm in BKK, I'm pretty sure I'm not one of Leica's target customers!

[Simone_DF]

42 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

I assume the shopping venues to which you refer are Gaysorn and Central World?  

Your post puts into words exactly what I've been thinking for the past few months, better than I could have said it myself.

As a regular patron of the 7/11 at the lower basement level of Gaysorn whenever I'm in BKK, I'm pretty sure I'm not one of Leica's target customers!

Yup. Gaysorn and CentralWorld!

[Le Chef]

Even if you think Leica is a luxury brand, you have to have an underpinning of excellence and you have to keep reinforcing it. If you stop doing that you can float on a bubble for a while but you will crash and burn if you have no substance. I fear Leica is on the edge of that twilight zone, (the frog in the boiling water) and if they don’t substantiate their excellence they will crash and burn. The SL2/S is next…

[nicci78]

On 3/25/2022 at 12:48 PM, crf59 said:

My real concern is long term viability. I have 3 CLs and a TL2, so I expect I will have an operating camera for some time. But have you tried to buy a CL battery lately? Even worse, a TL2 battery - had to buy a new-old-stock one recently. 10 years from now I am afraid I'll have paperweights lying around. Fortunately I have lots of cameras... Maybe I'll be "forced" to buy an M11

Cameras using CL batteries are still being actively sold as new by three manufacturers : Panasonic (FZ1000 and others) Sigma (fp & fp L) and Leica (V-Lux 5)

So don’t worry. 
However TL batteries are probably doomed. 

[Simone_DF]

On 3/27/2022 at 10:37 AM, Le Chef said:

The SL2/S is next…

Nah, it looks like both Leica and Panasonic are - slowly - learning from their mistakes.

Panasonic publically aknowledged their autofocus system was subpar and worked hard to fix it. Right now it's years behind the rest of the pack, but it's good in AF-S and usable in AF-C, with some limits. Panasonic also realized the market was not really interested in huge, heavy cameras, and released the S5. I'm sure Leica will follow the same path with a smaller and lighter SL3, they'd be stupid not to, or Panasonic will end up eating their customers base. 

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Simone_DF said:

Panasonic will end up eating their customers base. 

They already do. Panasonic S5 and Sigma lenses (24-70 2.8 C,  70 Macro  A and 100-600 C)see as much use as my CL/TL system. And more than my M cameras, except the Monochrom 1 - which I prefer Zeiss lenses for  

[Simone_DF]

39 minutes ago, jaapv said:

They already do. Panasonic S5 and Sigma lenses (24-70 2.8 C,  70 Macro  A and 100-600 C)see as much use as my CL/TL system. And more than my M cameras, except the Monochrom 1 - which I prefer Zeiss lenses for  

Yup, same. I'm currently with the SL2-S, but if the SL3 keeps the same body footprint and weight, I'll ditch it for a S5II, I'm really tired of carrying around a 900g camera

[T25UFO]

On 3/23/2022 at 11:33 PM, IkarusJohn said:

You doubt Leica is profitable?

Well, I guess all we can rely on is what little is published (as Leica is a private company).  What we can deduce is that among the big producers - Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji -  their photographic divisions are far from profitable and are supported by their other, much larger business divisions.  Leica Camera AG, conversely, relies on its photographic sales.  Can I provide figures on Leica's profitability?  Nothing more than what has been posted here.  What public information we have is that Leica is profitable.  A quick Google gives performance information showing revenues of around 400 million Euro, and profitability increases which other makes would cherish.

Recent information is not so easy to find.  I'm sure our German members have a better grasp.  This website gives a picture of the Japanese manufacturers' struggles with declining profits - https://fstoppers.com/originals/covid-devastation-financial-results-sony-wins-canon-holds-nikon-way-out-516408.

In general terms, being a camera maker is a difficult place to be - there is blood on the floor, from everything I have read.  This article is an interesting read - https://fstoppers.com/business/sony-altered-camera-market-forever-575067.  

Also this opinion piece, suggesting that medium format (or M4/3) is the future - https://fstoppers.com/medium-format/why-should-consider-abandoning-full-frame-and-aps-c-and-go-something-more-590382 Not sure I see M4/3 surviving the phenomenal increase in quality of cellphones (I'd be interested in the Leitz 1 phone, if it ever makes it out of Japan).

There are other websites, but I don't think anyone can argue that making cameras is anything but a difficult business to be in.

Two points are really central to this thread:

(1) Leica's apparent decision to stop (or at least delay) further development of its APS-C cameras.  First, Leica has given the L mount APS-C cameras a pretty good shot (three T versions and the CL in varying guises - Paul Smith, Bauhaus, Jungle (whatever that was)), yet it is safe to assume that sales do not justify continuing with APS-C (for the moment at least), and anecdotal evidence seems to be that there is no further development.  I don't imagine Leica stopping a profitable product.

I'm guessing that Leica has decided that its future, and its profits, lie in the full frame segment - it's where its investment has been, and as the inventor of the 24x36 format, that is understandable.  Its M11 release seems to be aimed at achieving the best image quality you can get out of that format.  Its recent lenses also suggest a commitment to quality in that format.  They obviously know something we don't.  It's Dr Kaufmann's company, so he can do what he likes.

(2) It's communication with its customers and its marketing.  Well, it does things its own way.  It hasn't behaved any differently with the APS-C cameras than it does with its other systems, from what I can see.  It has had a few nose bleeds over the years - its summary discontinuing of the R system, with its excellent lenses (which would have sent it broke had they not dumped it); the luxury association with Hermes; the terrible marketing campaign for the X-Vario and quietly dumping the X system, to name but some of their marketing/communication fumbling.

So, it has returned to what it sees as its successful approach - making excellent cameras and lenses, and keeping its plans to itself.  If you look at the overheated excitement over the M11 release, you get some idea of what Leica contends with.  It's just a camera release, for heaven's sake!  

If you accept that Leica primarily makes lenses and cameras as well as they can, and that is really all they are interested in, then I think their approach to their business is understandable. I rather like it. What marketing does (the X-Vario being an example) is to create excitement which the end result rarely lives up to.  They have released their programme for future releases in the past (the L mount lenses, the S3 and S system lenses) and have been caned for not achieving those projected release dates.  Why did they fail?  Not because they were distracted by watches and special editions, but because they were struggling to actually get the lenses to a quality standard where they could be released.  Look at the APO 50 Summicron - it was hard to make, hard to buy, expensive, and they had to recall it because of internal reflection; the APO 35 Summicron is almost impossible to find; there are quality control issues with the M-A; and its latest release, the M11, seems to have some issues.

A long post, I can't really think why I have written, to simply say that Leica is more interested in achieving excellence in its products, rather than pandering to complaints about the decisions it makes, which are now history (apparently).They like making cameras and lenses.  I for one like my TL2.  When it has needed repair, Leica has fixed it.  It still works.  There is nothing Leica might say about its APS-C strategy which will change that.  When my TL2 dies, the photographic world will be different again with other choices.  I'm hoping my other Leica cameras will still be functional, and Leica will fix them when needed.

I'm not sure that sharing with Leica how poorly you think of their marketing efforts and their owner/chief executive will make any difference to anything.

Yes, a very long post, which I've only just read, but it is also the most sensible thing I have seen written on this forum in a very long time. 👍

[dkCambridgeshire]

Leica Duke Street lists an 'ex demo' CL for just £1100  https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/cl-black-ex-demo-1.  ... also lists an ex demo TL2 for £1200 https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/shopware.php?sViewport=detail&sArticle=6911&number=SGB00000493 ... Not the first bargain CL listed by Duke St ... excellent buy at that price with 12 months warranty. 

[MJB]

1 hour ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Leica Duke Street lists an 'ex demo' CL for just £1100  https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/cl-black-ex-demo-1.  ... also lists an ex demo TL2 for £1200 https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/shopware.php?sViewport=detail&sArticle=6911&number=SGB00000493 ... Not the first bargain CL listed by Duke St ... excellent buy at that price with 12 months warranty. 

That's a great price, but both the top and bottom plate look pretty scuffed  up. Certainly not a deal breaker, given the price, and especially considering the 12-month warranty. But I'd encourage anyone to look closely at the photos and make sure they can live with it. I'd consider it as a second body if I hadn't just spent way too much than is reasonable on lenses...

[dkCambridgeshire]

1 hour ago, MJB said:

That's a great price, but both the top and bottom plate look pretty scuffed  up. Certainly not a deal breaker, given the price, and especially considering the 12-month warranty. But I'd encourage anyone to look closely at the photos and make sure they can live with it. I'd consider it as a second body if I hadn't just spent way too much than is reasonable on lenses...

... it's the image results which matter ... and at £1100 the buyer is unlikely to £lose much if it's eventually sold on or PXd. At less than half the new price and with 12 months warranty a little 'wabi-sabi' is immaterial ... 

Edited March 29, 2022 by dkCambridgeshire

[palmerfralick]

On 2/21/2022 at 7:17 PM, Louis said:

All the rumors about Leica ending the production of CL and TT2 became real!

I learned from a contact in Wetzlar, Leica has, indeed, decided to end APS-C line and may come with another L mount camera in the future. But don’t expect it for soon!

I am still blaming Leica AG for not announcing this decision officially; so some of us could decide earlier about our gear, and maybe, avoid some extra expense.

As far as I am concerned, I continue using my excellent CL as long as it keeps working, but because of their unacceptable attitude, I would never trust Leica company anymore and I will never purchase any other Leica product again!

Sorry folks for the bad news, but I believe I had a moral obligation to share it with you.

I think they may feel the pressure to offer a best in class EVF option for M Mount, maybe a hybrid like Fuji where you can see the EVF for critical focus thru the optical window. An M class that still has a rangefinder patch and a simple 2 page menu but able to switch to viewfinder EVF for me would be the ultimate M12. 

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Hallo,

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[baretta]

Give a good film simulation Jpg like fujicolor or ricoh.