Leica APS-C -- No more!

[Camaro5]

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5 hours ago, EUSe said:

I no longer find the 18-56 mm TL very convincing and many people complain about it. It is good, but not excellent.

I've had very different results with my 18-56.  I don't shoot birds or butterflies, but in doing street or automotive my lens has always produced great images.  I haven't used it in low light as I have better gear for that, but as a walk-around lens during the day at car shows or for street, I have no complaints.  

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[jaapv]

It is often forgotten that IBIS does not cure motion blur. When the subject is moving, it will be blurred (sometimes less so without IBIS  ) What it does do is help compensate camera wobble - and we must ask ourselves: "why does my camera wobble?" 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, adan said:

Keep in mind that Fujifilm is backed up by $27 BILLION in market cap, with a lot of profitable businesses other than digital cameras and lenses. Which deliver only 4% of the annual revenue. Even today, their old-school photo products division (film, paper, Instax cameras) is twice as large as the "optical device & digital camera" division, at 10%. But their biggest markets are in healthcare and office equipment.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/1114526/fujifilm-revenue-share-breakdown-by-product-type/

That is a lot of capital available for "throwing products at the wall to see what sticks." A luxury Leica doesn't have - although the whole TL/CL project may have been just such an attempt, in flusher times.

Leica is privately held, so we don't know their capitalization. But I'd guess well south of $1 billion. Some sources from 2017 guessed about €700 million/$828 million. And Leica doesn't have "diversified products" (well, except sports optics ... and watches ) to help balance any slump in camera and lens sales. No Leica copiers, no Leica printers, no Leica film, no Leica "highly-functional materials," no Leica healthcare devices/materials earning income to help support the overheads.

Nevertheless I am pulling for TL/CL users. Some decent pix on your threads.

I don't think that this is quite fair at Fuji. They have a consistent development philosophy. To suggest that they are only throwing designs at the wall because they can afford to have a corporate hobby is clearly not tenable.

[Viv]

If someone at Leica reads this discussion, surely they will see the need to make a statement on the future of their APS-C cameras and lenses.

Or do I hope for too much?

[EUSe]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

What is wrong with running Topaz DeNoise AI over your image for 20 seconds as the last step in processing? (Topaz Sharpen AI would have eliminated your sharpness issues as well, a bit slower, but still well under one minute.)

 

 

I have been using Topaz for a long time, ever since a Leica man suggested it and showed me the results from an M9. I take my time processing (not only noise, of course), but the CL always took a little longer. I would rather not go into this trouble, it can get frustrating if you have to apply it constantly when the light is insufficient (lease dn’t suggest going out in full sunshine only 😉). You can get good results in good light without Topaz and I don‘t mind a little grain. Today‘s sensors are much better, nowadays I very rarely need noise reduction at all. So an updated APS-C camera would have been fine, but… I gave up all hopes since talking to Stefan Daniel last summer. There was no final decision made concerning the future of the CL at that time, and I believe him, but the odds were bad. He did not say anything about the reasons but pointed to the  world-wide prevailing interest in FF and flagship models. That makes me think that even the SL2-S is in danger.
I have written about that elsewhere on the forum already. 

[EUSe]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb tritentrue:

C1's default settings also do a great job managing noise.  I shot a waterhen the other day at ISO 6400, added a touch of sharpening, cropped it at 100%, and the result (below) looks okay to my eyes.

FTR, I'm not one of the IBIS crowd.  My critter shots necessitate 1/800 or faster to stop motion blur, which is plenty fast enough for me to get sharp shots, even using 540mm AOV.  As @jaapv has mentioned in this thread and several times in other parts of the forum, technique is a big factor in getting sharp shots.

Being a little riskier with the CL lately, I've also found that, with some common sense applied, the CL can take as much bad weather as I'm willing to shoot in.

Ok, Leica, have it your way . . . I'll shoot my CL until the dials fall off! 😉

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Yes, I stick with very fast exposure times for birds and moving things in general. Nevertheless you own motion is an additional factor that can degrade sharpness, IBIS/OIS helps to see in the EVF what is happening. Not to speak of the benefit of eye detection. My hands are not the steadiest, but I know how to hold/stabilize  a camera and how to breathe. By the  way, aerial perturbation also comes in with longer focal lengths. But we are talking about photographical basics here. 

[EUSe]

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vor 10 Stunden schrieb Louis:

So sorry; Eva, of course! I don't know why I said Ingrid!!!!....

For my type of photography, 55-135 works well and I always get fine IQ with no noise (maybe it is the light in Florida!). I find it very useful when I am in street or in an event, and I like to get  portraits of people. But I like the 35mm TL so much that I keep it on my CL most of the time. You mentioned TL2; I still have my first edition T and surprisingly the IQ is excellent and I find it easier to use for closeups and MF lens than CL.

That said, I am still very curious when Leica is going to tell us officially about their decisions; and, what is going to be next!. If I had a clue, I could take some decisions about  my future fear and save some money!... This is why I am, like many others, blaming Leica for keeping us in the dark!

 

I think it is a shame that the TL line was finished and that there were no firmware updates. The T has been bashed to death on the German forum, probably because the posters did not know how to use it and kept showing images that did not do it justice. I personally love the interface and when the TL2 was sold off with large rebates, I grabbed one. I am afraid keeping us in the dark (sales? a technical future that nobody can foresee, availability of parts?) has a long tradition with Leica. I don‘t like this strategy either. 

 

[EUSe]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

It is often forgotten that IBIS does not cure motion blur. When the subject is moving, it will be blurred (sometimes less so without IBIS  ) What it does do is help compensate camera wobble - and we must ask ourselves: "why does my camera wobble?" 

Photo basics of course. I think it is not only about IBIS or motion blur. Stay happy with what you are using for your needs, I am very happy with my equipment at present.

[EUSe]

vor 9 Stunden schrieb Louis:

As Jaap suggested, DeNoise is an excellent plugin to remove the noise. I have it in my PS, and honestly, I rarely use it because my T and CL give me much satisfaction.

Speaking of MF and AI lenses, if Leica comes with a new camera, I hope I can still use my old manual lenses. Below, a few samples of T camera with AI (manual ) lenses.

This one is a handheld shot with Nikkor 50 mm, F/1.4, on T.

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These two are with Nikkor 85mm, f/1.8, on a tripod and window light!.... T was an excellent 16 MP camera, and I am sure Leica can make other small excellent cameras in the future if it decides so; and none of them could be replace by a smartphone!

Great shots. As for smartphone photography, I have captured a few candid  portraits that I really like with my iPhone 12 Pro - but don‘t look too closely, no match for any T model or the CL. I simply cannot compose on a smartphone and distortion is a real problem. Spray and pray! So I concur with you.

[colonel]

I like the CL very much, and the TL2 more then most, but its a fact that its only been marginally successful. I thought the body was not bad value, but the lenses were significantly over priced, and know that a cheap M lens is £2.5k, but the M doesn't really have any competition, and the lenses are industry leading + they last forever as they have no electronics. APS-C has fierce competition from Sony and Fuji.

If the discontinuation is true, and i am not convinced of this yet, despite the comments above, it will be sad, but on the other hand, Leica is entitled to only keep profitable lines. It is a small company as well, and doesn't have much room for manoeuvre. I admire, more then anything about Leica, its willingness to experiment. This has produced market change products, like the original X and X2, and the Q, etc, but this drive to experiment also produces products that are not popular, like the Leica Vario. As fans, we just have to go with the flow ......

[lct]

3 hours ago, Viv said:

If someone at Leica reads this discussion, surely they will see the need to make a statement on the future of their APS-C cameras and lenses.

Or do I hope for too much?

They will do it when they can announce a replacement solution i guess but i may be wrong.

[Louis]

4 hours ago, Viv said:

If someone at Leica reads this discussion, surely they will see the need to make a statement on the future of their APS-C cameras and lenses.

Or do I hope for too much?

I believe this is the objective of these discussions.

[Marac]

5 hours ago, Viv said:

If someone at Leica reads this discussion

They're going to need a stiff Scotch or two. 

[tritentrue]

Out in the field stalking critters with the CL this afternoon, it occurred to me that maybe the reason Leica hasn't put out an updated model is because they can't think of a way to improve on the existing one.

Seeing how some full frame L-mount gear is being sold out the back door here at a discount, and secondhand SL lenses are going in some instances for less than half their original prices, is starting to make me wonder if their entire L-mount line is in trouble . . . 

[Ivar B]

6 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

Out in the field stalking critters with the CL this afternoon, it occurred to me that maybe the reason Leica hasn't put out an updated model is because they can't think of a way to improve on the existing one.

Seeing how some full frame L-mount gear is being sold out the back door here at a discount, and secondhand SL lenses are going in some instances for less than half their original prices, is starting to make me wonder if their entire L-mount line is in trouble . . . 

If the L-mount is in trouble I don`t know, but is is probably at least fair to state that sales have been disappointing. 

 

[smcmason]

4 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

Out in the field stalking critters with the CL this afternoon, it occurred to me that maybe the reason Leica hasn't put out an updated model is because they can't think of a way to improve on the existing one.

I see this as very plausible. I can't think of a way to make marked improvements without substantially changing the price or size of the camera. If this is the case though, I don't know why they won't get behind the product more enthusiastically from a marketing perspective. 

5 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

Seeing how some full frame L-mount gear is being sold out the back door here at a discount, and secondhand SL lenses are going in some instances for less than half their original prices, is starting to make me wonder if their entire L-mount line is in trouble . . . 

I think L Mount is an unbelievably good system. When you look at the options available from APS-C to FF and price points from the widely available and low cost Sigma primes to the ultra high quality Leica SL lens offerings and add in the wide array of bodies available, there really is something for everyone, and room to move up within the ecosystem while retaining older hardware. I would be very disappointed if the Alliance dissolves or Leica abandons it. I have so much flexibility with my CL and S1R. It really is a joy to use these bodies when and where I need them. The current price point for used Panasonic FF bodies is absurdly low. 

[Louis]

47 minutes ago, tritentrue said:

Out in the field stalking critters with the CL this afternoon, it occurred to me that maybe the reason Leica hasn't put out an updated model is because they can't think of a way to improve on the existing one.

Seeing how some full frame L-mount gear is being sold out the back door here at a discount, and secondhand SL lenses are going in some instances for less than half their original prices, is starting to make me wonder if their entire L-mount line is in trouble . . . 

If this is true that Leica is working on a camera smaller than SL, then what SL would become since I am sure people prefer a smaller, lighter and maybe (?) cheaper body! In that case wouldn’t the current L lenses be too big for such a body!… 

Are they planning a completely new system?…. I doubt it!

In my view, the best bet for them would have been the continuation of CL system! …. But what do I know!….

A kind of interchangeable Q with L/TL mount?….  Who knows!….

 

[lct]

17 minutes ago, Louis said:

If this is true that Leica is working on a camera smaller than SL, then what SL would become since I am sure people prefer a smaller, lighter and maybe (?) cheaper body! In that case wouldn’t the current L lenses be too big for such a body!…

Leica did not change R lenses when they launched the R4 which was significantly smaller than the R3 and previous Leicaflex SL and SL2. This did not prevent R owners to use them on the new body, including large lenses like my Apo-Telyt 280/4 (specs herewith) which was not the biggest by far.  

LeicaR_28040_specs.pdf

Edited March 10, 2022 by lct

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[smcmason]

25 minutes ago, Louis said:

A kind of interchangeable Q with L/TL mount?….  Who knows!….

 

This is the second time I've seen you allude to this sort of possibility within this thread. I cannot tell you how excited I would be to see something like that come out. I'll assume you have the inside knowledge and this announcement is a certainty. It makes me feel better  

[Le Chef]

Many years ago, and on two separate occasions VAG found the economics of bringing a new model to market were untenable. The IP and all the tools and dies were transferred to Porsche. From that came the 914 and 916, and later the 924/944/968 ranges. 

Could Leica hand over the IP and prototypes of a CL2 to Sigma to develop? They might also hand over the TL line of lenses and the production arrangements.

That way removes what some here presume is a drag to the bottom line created by the APSC system products, while still keeping current CL/TL owners in the family through viable TL and other smaller compatible lenses, still fit into the L-mount alliance relationship, provide a gateway to enter the world of Leica and also a stepping stone to move up to the SL2/S system.

What am I missing?