Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[snooper]

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Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt - or at least to keep in mind - when using an M11. In short, and in 2022, we have to downgrade the IQ by using much higher ISO, just because we now need to shoot at a speed equivalent to 4 or 5 times the focal length.

I’m sorry to say that IMHO this is not an improvement at all, while the M family was always somehow linked to slow speeds and low lights, with lenses wide opened / hand held / stealth. This is part of the M DNA, and contributive to the so called “Leica look”.

M11 would then be the first M you can’t really use as Ms were being used for decades (had my first M4P in 1981).

Edited April 1, 2022 by snooper

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[lct]

2 minutes ago, snooper said:

Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit that there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt or at least to keep in mind when shooting with an M11. In short, and in 2022, we have to downgrade the IQ by using much higher ISO, just because we now need to shoot at a speed 4 or 5 times the focal length. [...]

Don't count me in, my M11 will work normally or will have to go. Funny thing would be if such advice comes from Real Leica Men who don't want Leica to launch an EVF-M with IBIS for not being das Wesentliche enough to them .

 

 

[Tailwagger]

1 hour ago, lct said:

...and e-shutter mode with Visoflex on to begin with and i'll see very soon if i keep the camera.

Making sure not shoot in questionable lighting conditions, leds, etc.  If you're worried about shake, just set hybrid shutter and max auto iso to taste, 3200, 6400, or 12500 and 1/2f. You'll be fine. 

[lct]

2 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Making sure not shoot in questionable lighting conditions, leds, etc.  If you're worried about shake, just set hybrid shutter and max auto iso to taste, 3200, 6400, or 12500 and 1/2f. You'll be fine. 

Thank you much but i will do it my own way  i.e. at normal shutter speeds and e-shutter mode, outside of leds of course. It is the test i use with my other cameras so the M11 will have to pass it if it wants to deserve the famous lct diploma .

[wizard]

vor einer Stunde schrieb snooper:

Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt - or at least to keep in mind - when using an M11. In short, and in 2022, we have to downgrade the IQ by using much higher ISO, just because we now need to shoot at a speed equivalent to 4 or 5 times the focal length.

I disagree. Even in the good old film days, if you wanted to realize the full potential of extremely high resolving films, such as Kodak Technical Pan and others, you needed to adapt your normal shooting technique to eliminate even the slightest cause of shake, else you were not able to exploit the full potential of those films. The same is true in 2022 if you want to exploit the full potential of a 60(!) MP digital camera. Camera shake will ruin the full potential of such a camera, as it did in the film days. It is not the camera's fault (though IBIS would of course help). Rather, it is the misconception of users thinking that an ever increasing resolution of very fine detail may be had for free.

In summary, things haven't really changed.

[fsprow]

27 minutes ago, wizard said:

I disagree. Even in the good old film days, if you wanted to realize the full potential of extremely high resolving films, such as Kodak Technical Pan and others, you needed to adapt your normal shooting technique to eliminate even the slightest cause of shake, else you were not able to exploit the full potential of those films. The same is true in 2022 if you want to exploit the full potential of a 60(!) MP digital camera. Camera shake will ruin the full potential of such a camera, as it did in the film days. It is not the camera's fault (though IBIS would of course help). Rather, it is the misconception of users thinking that an ever increasing resolution of very fine detail may be had for free.

In summary, things haven't really changed.

Couldn’t agree more. So far I have only 1000 images on the camera, but I’m delighted with its performance. I’ve owned M cameras from the M3 double stroke on and haven’t had the slightest M11 problem getting very sharp images at 60MP with shutter speeds hand held at twice the lens focal length. For example,  1/125 for a 50 mm lens. Sharpness at 60 megapixels is on a par with my Hasselblad H6D 100 megapixel camera. As always, careful handholding and using auto iso up to 6400 in my case does the job.

[harmen]

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2 hours ago, snooper said:

Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt - or at least to keep in mind - when using an M11.

No, the conclusion was that for your usual output size nothing changes.  If you’d like to however you could get bigger prints with exquisite detail out of this new M by applying extra care.

[anickpick]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb lct:

You don't know this old pain in the neck . What is sure i won't use the M11 the same way as most of you do with your rock solid arms or deep wishful thinkings . 36MP and e-shutter mode with Visoflex on to begin with and i'll see very soon if i keep the camera.

Well, that‘s the point: Your worrying period will be over, whether the M11 works out for you or not 😉

[Tailwagger]

3 minutes ago, harmen said:

No, the conclusion was that for your usual output size nothing changes.  If you’d like to however you could get bigger prints with exquisite detail out of this new M by applying extra care.

And by extra care, we mean a 20% increase in ISO or shutter speed over a 10-R for the equivalent amount of shake you we're cool with previously.  If you couldn't get a clean shot with the 10-R at anything less than 1/4f, with M11 you need 1/5f.   If you used to shoot at 1/F with an M10, you should see an improvement at the pixel level if you shoot the M11 at 1/2F, essentially the same as it was with the 10-R. 

[snooper]

2 hours ago, wizard said:

I disagree. Even in the good old film days, if you wanted to realize the full potential of extremely high resolving films, such as Kodak Technical Pan and others, you needed to adapt your normal shooting technique to eliminate even the slightest cause of shake, else you were not able to exploit the full potential of those films. The same is true in 2022 if you want to exploit the full potential of a 60(!) MP digital camera. Camera shake will ruin the full potential of such a camera, as it did in the film days. It is not the camera's fault (though IBIS would of course help). Rather, it is the misconception of users thinking that an ever increasing resolution of very fine detail may be had for free.

In summary, things haven't really changed.

In my old film days (started in the mid-70s) we could get optimal shots on a M4P, handheld, at 1/15th with a 35mm or 1/30th of a sec with a 50mm. Period.

[lct]

24 minutes ago, snooper said:

In my old film days (started in the mid-70s) we could get optimal shots on a M4P, handheld, at 1/15th with a 35mm or 1/30th of a sec with a 50mm. Period.

Those were our young days then. What we should expect from any camera is to get sharp results handheld at 1/f, at least that's what i've been expecting since the seventies. Can be achieved on high res digital cameras with IBIS, tripods, rock solid hands or deep wishful thinking. Rather the latter among M11 users if you ask me but don't repeat it . At 60MP i don't expect any success with the M11 handheld on this test personally. 18MP should do it hopefully  but i have a doubt about 36MP. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by lct

[wizard]

vor 59 Minuten schrieb snooper:

In my old film days (started in the mid-70s) we could get optimal shots on a M4P, handheld, at 1/15th with a 35mm or 1/30th of a sec with a 50mm. Period.

Sure you could. But not on Kodak Technical Pan. I had my first Leica M3 in 1973, so have similar experience to yours, and I am still able to get very decent shots with a M10R, handheld, at 1/15th and ISO 100 using my MATE. But if you are after full 60MP detail resolution, 1/15th will most likely not work, at least not without a tripod.

Edited April 1, 2022 by wizard

[SrMi]

4 hours ago, snooper said:

Whatever the reason is, most people here do admit there are specific considerations and techniques to adopt - or at least to keep in mind - when using an M11. In short, and in 2022, we have to downgrade the IQ by using much higher ISO, just because we now need to shoot at a speed equivalent to 4 or 5 times the focal length.

I’m sorry to say that IMHO this is not an improvement at all, while the M family was always somehow linked to slow speeds and low lights, with lenses wide opened / hand held / stealth. This is part of the M DNA, and contributive to the so called “Leica look”.

M11 would then be the first M you can’t really use as Ms were being used for decades (had my first M4P in 1981).

April fools! A good one! 😉

[wizard]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb SrMi:

April fools! A good one!

If only it would be 🙂.

[pgk]

1 hour ago, snooper said:

In my old film days (started in the mid-70s) we could get optimal shots on a M4P, handheld, at 1/15th with a 35mm or 1/30th of a sec with a 50mm. Period.

I used to test lenses (MTF) and sometimes using Tech Pan. Using slow shutter speeds was, and is, hit and miss. Period.

[LocalHero1953]

So are we all agreed then, that you can shoot the M11 at 1/f* only if you have rock solid hands and technique, otherwise you should shoot at 1/2f or 1/4f?
So if you want to shoot at 1/f, but you do not have rock solid hands and technique, then a M11 would be a waste of money?

 

*Edit: at 60mp

Edited April 1, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[Tailwagger]

14 hours ago, lct said:

Never felt the need to bother with this in 15+ years but YMMV. What is sure is i will not begin to sharpen in PP with the M11. If this camera proves unable to do at least as well as my M8.2/M240/CL/A7s/A7r2 on this point it will have to find another owner to cherish it better than i can do.

Suit yourself, but it doesn't mean you wouldn't benefit from using it or Topaz...

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

 

Oh and for all the detractors who think, 'yeah, here's more proof that the M11 is soft SooC', sorry, ah, no.  Just more proof some people are looking for problems where they don't exist. Why? Because this shot was taken with the SL2 and Lumix 70-200 F2.8.

[lct]

6 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

So are we all agreed then, that you can shoot the M11 at 1/f only if you have rock solid hands and technique, otherwise you should shoot at 1/2f or 1/4f?
So if you want to shoot at 1/f, but you do not have rock solid hands and technique, then a M11 would be a waste of money?

Sounds obvious if you intend to shoot handheld at 60MP but i'm not yet an M11 user so my level of wishful thinking is still very low .   

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[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, lct said:

Sounds obvious if you intend to shoot handheld at 60MP but i'm not yet an M11 user so my level of wishful thinking is still very low .   

I've edited my post - yes, I was referring to 60mp.

[lct]

21 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I've edited my post - yes, I was referring to 60mp.

I was sure to have rock solid hands and faultless technique until i compared my pics with and sans IBIS on my 42MP Sony. Not night and day but 1/f sans IBIS was not fast enough obviously. My only question about the M11 is how it behaves at 36 and 18MP personally but again i'm not yet an M11 shooter. 

Edited April 1, 2022 by lct