Problems getting sharp images by 60MP

[Fedro]

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4 minutes ago, pgk said:

Indeed. But regarding your last point. There is currently no digital equivalent of a 'simple' film camera - Leica M6, Nikon FM, Pentax K1000, etc.. Many will argue that there doesn't need to be but, for I one, will argue that simplicity is currently in short supply. The M11 is a good example of technical bloat, most of which is quite unnecessary for taking 'good' photographs.

Hi Paul - indeed, and if there is a large enough market to make it a viable product, someone will produce it and sell it

Otherwise we have to wait for the M11D and hope they do it like the original one (which I had) and not like the 10D which, in my view, was neither fish nor flesh and I skipped

[FlashGordonPhotography]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

True, ref video. But angst over exposure methods is because the default method that M owners have been used to since the M6 is no longer an option in its original form. Again, it is not unreasonable to question whether this an improvement*.

 

* Exposure by LV is not a worry for me. It does puzzle me though, why the M11 shutter does not behave like the CL and SL and stay open, thereby avoiding the need to open at startup. Why does the M11 have to be different? More questions.....or whingeing.

Centre weighted metering is still available. Different implementation but the same result. Again. I don't get why it's a big deal whether cw is measured off the shutter or not. CW is still available if that's how you like to shoot. And it has advantages in cleaning up the light path.

When the M13 is released we'll all be rueing the death of the classic M after the M11.....

Gordon

[harmen]

One person's technical bloat is another's simplicity.  The way I use the M11 I find that the technical advances mean that the camera gets less in the way.  For me the M in general is superb in terms of getting out of the way, seeing the world as it is, and not intimidating anyone around me with a bazooka in front of my face.  The M11 reduces shutter speed and ISO limitations, meaning that any aperture can be used at any time.  The pixels are abundant and don't restrict me.  I've not purchased an EVF and am not interested.  It's simpler and easier to use than my previous digital M, the 240.  I don't even have to take the memory card out.  Taking out the battery is also not required.  Hassle free.  If ever there was an M where a base-plate would be fine, it would be this one. 😉

Edited February 22, 2022 by harmen

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

Again. I don't get why it's a big deal

M owners shoot fast, slow, on the run, on a tripod.
M owners shoot landscapes, headshots, family, street, wildlife, portraits, documentary, architecture, even some sports.
M owners are fit, healthy, jogging along, have tremors, or dodgy eyesight.
M owners have personality make-ups that find different camera features fabulous, acceptable, irritating, unacceptable, unbelievable.
I don't get why it's important to you enough to argue over it, rather than just accept it🙂!

Edited February 22, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[pgk]

The M5 offered greater veratility than its predecessors. Meddling with the M camera's original concept has not had happy endings in the past. Hisory has a bad habit of repeating itself.

[lct]

18 minutes ago, pgk said:

The M5 offered greater veratility than its predecessors. Meddling with the M camera's original concept has not had happy endings in the past. Hisory has a bad habit of repeating itself.

Yes i thought of that too but the M5 was huge. Almost larger than the SL if memory serves me well. Was a shock to compare it side by side with the M4-2 then. Leica did not fall in that trap with the M11 and they are smart or astute enough to sing a little music after the famous Das Wesentliche: What's Not To Like... Another bourgeois concept?  

[SrMi]

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14 hours ago, digitalfx said:

Highly unlikely...it also appeared in a graphic in the same presentation. That would be a huge mistake.

I had the same immediate reaction when I first heard that they were using pixel binning. In the video world pixel binning is generally known to create inferior results.

RE: Resolution... pixel binning isnt limited to 4:1.

"Dual Pixel Gain" is also mentioned on the website specs for the M11. Dual pixel gain is when the signal is read out twice at different gains to increase dynamic range...same concept used for dual pixel autofocus, but for a different application.

Can pixel binning be less than 1:4 (i.e., Leica's Triple Resolution)?

I think you are referring to dual output gain as done by GH6, not dual pixel gain (link). Could you please point me to the documentation about dual pixel gain if that is not the case?

AFAIK, Sony's sensors only have dual conversion gain (or dual gain), and the PhotonsToPhotos measurement indicates that it is standard dual conversion gain.

Edited February 22, 2022 by SrMi

[digitalfx]

10 hours ago, SrMi said:

Can pixel binning be less than 1:4 (i.e., Leica's Triple Resolution)?

I think you are referring to dual output gain as done by GH6, not dual pixel gain (link). Could you please point me to the documentation about dual pixel gain if that is not the case?

AFAIK, Sony's sensors only have dual conversion gain (or dual gain), and the PhotonsToPhotos measurement indicates that it is standard dual conversion gain.

Im no expert on pixel binning, but everything ive read says that although 4 to 1 is the most common, its not the only option. I would assume the larger the sensor the more options you have. Sean Reids first review stated something about this, and I think he mentioned he talked to Leica and the resolutions were chosen because they gave the best results.

 

Ill have to search for the article on dual pixel gain.

[FlashGordonPhotography]

11 hours ago, SrMi said:

Can pixel binning be less than 1:4 (i.e., Leica's Triple Resolution)?

I think you are referring to dual output gain as done by GH6, not dual pixel gain (link). Could you please point me to the documentation about dual pixel gain if that is not the case?

AFAIK, Sony's sensors only have dual conversion gain (or dual gain), and the PhotonsToPhotos measurement indicates that it is standard dual conversion gain.

I wasn't sure either. All I can go by is Leica calling it pixel binning. Red Dot said hardware binning but I have no idea where they got their information from.

Regardsless, the results are really really good. I've done some quick and dirty comparisons and I can't see any downsides to using Leicas reduced resolutions over another camera that has say a 24MP sensor. I think I'd choose an M11 at 18MP over an M10 at 24MP actually. Like digital lens corrections, I'm at the point where I don't care how it's done. Just the results.

I will say this though. The shooting rate and buffer are definitely affected by the resolution.  Continuous shooting compared, I got about 8 frames at 60MP. I got over 90 at 18MP. Considering that either hardware or software power is required to make the lower resolutions it's a pretty impressive feat.

Gordon

Edited February 23, 2022 by FlashGordonPhotography

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, digitalfx said:

Im no expert on pixel binning, but everything ive read says that although 4 to 1 is the most common, its not the only option. I would assume the larger the sensor the more options you have. Sean Reids first review stated something about this, and I think he mentioned he talked to Leica and the resolutions were chosen because they gave the best results.

 

Ill have to search for the article on dual pixel gain.

AFAIK, pixel binning merges pixels, e.g., 2 into 1 (4:1 ratio), 3 into 1, etc.
IIRC, Sean Reid asked about supporting 24MP, but Leica said they could not do it because the math determines the chosen resolutions. I have no idea what math is involved, but it sounds like the firmware is doing the resizing.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I wasn't sure either. All I can go by is Leica calling it pixel binning. Red Dot said hardware binning but I have no idea where they got their information from.

Regardsless, the results are really really good. I've done some quick and dirty comparisons and I can't see any downsides to using Leicas reduced resolutions over another camera that has say a 24MP sensor. I think I'd choose an M11 at 18MP over an M10 at 24MP actually. Like digital lens corrections, I'm at the point where I don't care how it's done. Just the results.

I will say this though. The shooting rate and buffer are definitely affected by the resolution.  Continuous shooting compared, I got about 8 frames at 60MP. I got over 90 at 18MP. Considering that either hardware or software power is required to make the lower resolutions it's a pretty impressive feat.

Gordon

In this talk (20:40), Jesko v. O. says that with S-DNG you reach an almost endless buffer. I also do not see any advantage of shooting with a 24MP vs. using S-DNG on M11.

[B0tt0mline]

Hi all,

I got my M11 and I also have the problem that i get many pictures which are not really sharp.

tried different leses and used shutterspeeds of 1/360 and 1/250.

 

Really strange, with my Fuji GFX system (also no Ibis) I had way less issues....

[FlashGordonPhotography]

22 minutes ago, B0tt0mline said:

Hi all,

I got my M11 and I also have the problem that i get many pictures which are not really sharp.

tried different leses and used shutterspeeds of 1/360 and 1/250.

 

Really strange, with my Fuji GFX system (also no Ibis) I had way less issues....

You're holding it wrong....

Seriously though, how experienced are you with Leica M? It's almost certainly a small cahnge in technique.

Consider a handgrip or Thumbie (available on eBay).

Gordon

[B0tt0mline]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

You're holding it wrong....

Seriously though, how experienced are you with Leica M? It's almost certainly a small cahnge in technique.

Consider a handgrip or Thumbie (available on eBay).

Gordon

Yes, i think you are right.

With my m10 and Thumbie I had no problems, but due to the evf i dont have the thumbie on the M11. Do you think the handgrip will help me? Can you please show me how you hold it?

[Stevejack]

4 hours ago, B0tt0mline said:

Hi all,

I got my M11 and I also have the problem that i get many pictures which are not really sharp.

tried different leses and used shutterspeeds of 1/360 and 1/250.

 

Really strange, with my Fuji GFX system (also no Ibis) I had way less issues....

 

At those shutter speeds that's definitely not your problem. Perhaps, if you're not used to rangefinders, you're slightly missing focus and/or shooting at a very shallow DOF?  When you're manual focusing with the rangefinder it's pretty common to be focusing on the side of the face or the edge of the hair and assume you're all good, but below f/4 you're probably not going to get a tack sharp eye. 

 

[B0tt0mline]

vor 6 Stunden schrieb Stevejack:

 

At those shutter speeds that's definitely not your problem. Perhaps, if you're not used to rangefinders, you're slightly missing focus and/or shooting at a very shallow DOF?  When you're manual focusing with the rangefinder it's pretty common to be focusing on the side of the face or the edge of the hair and assume you're all good, but below f/4 you're probably not going to get a tack sharp eye. 

 

Hi Steve,

Could be the case, but on my M10 I had no problems and also I use the new EVF on the M11....

[Stevejack]

11 minutes ago, B0tt0mline said:

Hi Steve,

Could be the case, but on my M10 I had no problems and also I use the new EVF on the M11....

Hmm - that's strange then. I guess it would take some tripod testing to see if you've got an issue somewhere in the camera/lens, or if it's purely an issue with your movement.

At lower shutter speeds I do my best to press the shutter like I fire a rifle, because I do jerk the camera right at the moment of taking the photo if I'm not concentrating and it blurs the shot... I have burst mode off for this reason, if I'm pressing the shutter with proper finger control I'll always end up taking two shots by mistake. But honestly over 1/250sec you really shouldn't need to bother.

I hope you find out the cause and get it solved 👍

[FlashGordonPhotography]

10 hours ago, B0tt0mline said:

Yes, i think you are right.

With my m10 and Thumbie I had no problems, but due to the evf i dont have the thumbie on the M11. Do you think the handgrip will help me? Can you please show me how you hold it?

A Thumbie (from Steve Barrett) allows you to use the EVF. It attaches with 3M tape. I've had one on every M since my M9's.

Handgrip may help but grows the camera. This may or may not be an issue. Consider a shutter button.

I have no photos but camera is supported almost entirely with my left hand, which also operates the lens tab. Normal technique with elbows in. Sqeeze the shutter, don't push it. SHoot at the end of an exhale. If in doubt shoot multiple frames. Usually the second or third in a sequence is the sharpest. Practice. I've been doing this a loooong time. It's pretty much instinctive by now.

I'm shooting a 50 APO to 1/30 at 60MP and 1/15th at 18MP. I'm not special. I just practice. A lot.

Gordon

[B0tt0mline]

vor 28 Minuten schrieb FlashGordonPhotography:

A Thumbie (from Steve Barrett) allows you to use the EVF. It attaches with 3M tape. I've had one on every M since my M9's.

Handgrip may help but grows the camera. This may or may not be an issue. Consider a shutter button.

I have no photos but camera is supported almost entirely with my left hand, which also operates the lens tab. Normal technique with elbows in. Sqeeze the shutter, don't push it. SHoot at the end of an exhale. If in doubt shoot multiple frames. Usually the second or third in a sequence is the sharpest. Practice. I've been doing this a loooong time. It's pretty much instinctive by now.

I'm shooting a 50 APO to 1/30 at 60MP and 1/15th at 18MP. I'm not special. I just practice. A lot.

Gordon

Thank you, will implement your tips!

Will post some pictures later. Maybe I just need to try it more, i did not use it for more than 1hour until now. Hopefully nothing is broken.

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[idusidusi]

I have to agree about shutter speed. I just tried out an M11 in the Leica Store, with a Summicron-M 35mm 1:2/35 ASPH and a Summicron-M 1:2/90  and much to my surprise, I found I needed to have 250th, I could see through the rangefinder my unsteadiness. Bear in mind I haven't handled an M for a few years, and I literally had a few minutes to try out.

I have one on order but I shall definitely need to re-learn how to hold properly for less shaky images and adjust settings accordingly. Zone focussed, And I was quite pleased with this.

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