DNG contains only a very small 160x120 preview: a bug

[meerec]

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It is a bug to me. 🤭🤮

I shoot DNG only, and my workflow starts with copying the images directly from the SD card using an SD dongle or over Fotos app to my iPad Pro to evaluate and cull images I don’t want to keep. Then I would either process some images in Lr on iPad or copy them to my Thunderbolt hard drive attached directly to the iPad and then further manage them on my Mac. 
 

This doesn’t work with the DNG’s created with M11 because the embedded previews are only 160 x 120 pixels in size and therefore when displayed on the iPad screen are highly pixelated and useless for the evaluation.
 

The first workaround I devised was to open each image in Lr and evaluate it there but it takes more time, and duplicates storage on the iPad and is generally unusable to me — it’s ok for one or two images but anything more than that is a pain. 
 

The current workaround I use is to shoot DNG+JPEG (Small) and copy both … that way I can evaluate the image based on the jpeg’s and cull those DNG’s (and jpeg’s) I don’t want to keep. 
 

I hope Leica is aware of this and will fix it in the firmware update soon.  

[sarkleshark]

I wonder if shooting in DNG + Jpeg would help?

[Stevejack]

38 minutes ago, meerec said:

It is a bug to me. 🤭🤮

I shoot DNG only, and my workflow starts with copying the images directly from the SD card using an SD dongle or over Fotos app to my iPad Pro to evaluate and cull images I don’t want to keep. Then I would either process some images in Lr on iPad or copy them to my Thunderbolt hard drive attached directly to the iPad and then further manage them on my Mac. 
 

This doesn’t work with the DNG’s created with M11 because the embedded previews are only 160 x 120 pixels in size and therefore when displayed on the iPad screen are highly pixelated and useless for the evaluation.
 

The first workaround I devised was to open each image in Lr and evaluate it there but it takes more time, and duplicates storage on the iPad and is generally unusable to me — it’s ok for one or two images but anything more than that is a pain. 
 

The current workaround I use is to shoot DNG+JPEG (Small) and copy both … that way I can evaluate the image based on the jpeg’s and cull those DNG’s (and jpeg’s) I don’t want to keep. 
 

I hope Leica is aware of this and will fix it in the firmware update soon.  

Hmm. I think the embedded previews are larger than that - I cull my images directly from the SD card using photo mechanic, and only copy the keepers across to my drive.

As far as I know, Photo Mechanic only looks at the embedded preview (which is why it's so fast to cull) and I haven't noticed what you're describing on the M11 files. Certainly you can't zoom right in to check critical sharpness (which is not unique to the M by any means), but there is enough quality to get a good idea of what's worth bringing into Lightroom for a closer look.

I wonder if you have an other issue going on there with your software, unrelated to Leica - but possibly an app needing an update?

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by Stevejack

[elmars]

vor 45 Minuten schrieb meerec:

It is a bug to me. 🤭🤮

I shoot DNG only, and my workflow starts with copying the images directly from the SD card using an SD dongle or over Fotos app to my iPad Pro to evaluate and cull images I don’t want to keep. Then I would either process some images in Lr on iPad or copy them to my Thunderbolt hard drive attached directly to the iPad and then further manage them on my Mac. 
 

This doesn’t work with the DNG’s created with M11 because the embedded previews are only 160 x 120 pixels in size and therefore when displayed on the iPad screen are highly pixelated and useless for the evaluation.
 

The first workaround I devised was to open each image in Lr and evaluate it there but it takes more time, and duplicates storage on the iPad and is generally unusable to me — it’s ok for one or two images but anything more than that is a pain. 
 

The current workaround I use is to shoot DNG+JPEG (Small) and copy both … that way I can evaluate the image based on the jpeg’s and cull those DNG’s (and jpeg’s) I don’t want to keep. 
 

I hope Leica is aware of this and will fix it in the firmware update soon.  

That was one of the things we complained about in the betatest of M11 and Fotos App. So Leica knows about it, but we don´t know what they will do.

[SrMi]

Every M11 L-DNG contains four previews:

> exiv2 -pp L1000034.DNG 

Preview 1: image/tiff, 160x120 pixels, 15528 bytes
Preview 2: image/tiff, 720x480 pixels, 150696 bytes
Preview 3: image/tiff, 2112x1408 pixels, 694952 bytes
Preview 4: image/tiff, 9504x6320 pixels, 7525544 bytes
 

Edited February 2, 2022 by SrMi

[meerec]

38 minutes ago, elmars said:

That was one of the things we complained about in the betatest of M11 and Fotos App. So Leica knows about it, but we don´t know what they will do.

Oh I’m glad Leica knows about it. Hope it’ll be fixed, it is annoying. It is not just about the Fotos app, it’s about their DNG file contents. It is a bug if the iPad isn’t handling them with proper previews. 

[meerec]

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37 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Every M11 L-DNG contains four previews:

> exiv2 -pp L1000034.DNG 

Preview 1: image/tiff, 160x120 pixels, 15528 bytes
Preview 2: image/tiff, 720x480 pixels, 150696 bytes
Preview 3: image/tiff, 2112x1408 pixels, 694952 bytes
Preview 4: image/tiff, 9504x6320 pixels, 7525544 bytes
 

It may contain those previews. I don’t know. You may have scrutinised a sample DNG with some tool. Makes no difference to the user as the way they are exposed to a standard tool like Files in an iPad, only the first one shows up, the one with 160x120 pixels: useless.  

[meerec]

1 hour ago, sarkleshark said:

I wonder if shooting in DNG + Jpeg would help?

If you read my post more carefully …

[meerec]

I’ve been using the same iPad Pro with DNG and RAW files from Leica CL, Leica SL2, Leica M10R, Hasselblad 907X without any such issues. 
Here is what it looks like, taken screenshots from my iPad. Check the Dimensions field. 
 

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[SrMi]

7 minutes ago, meerec said:

It may contain those previews. I don’t know. You may have scrutinised a sample DNG with some tool. Makes no difference to the user as the way they are exposed to a standard tool like Files in an iPad, only the first one shows up, the one with 160x120 pixels: useless.  

I have extracted the largest preview, so it is certainly there. Mac and Lightroom do not support M11 officially yet. The ball is on Adobe’s and Apple’s side. I do not know what are the issues with Fotos, but M11’s L-DNGs contain all data.

The price that early adopters pay.

Edited February 2, 2022 by SrMi

[meerec]

41 minutes ago, SrMi said:

The price that early adopters pay.

Totally agree. From my perspective, it’s not a complaint or stopper — there are workarounds available. It’s more about making everyone, including Leica (maybe Apple and Adobe too) aware there are issues. And again, I’ll repeat myself — never had any such issue before with CL, SL, SL2, M10R, Hasselblad X1D and 907X - I am an early adopter. 

[digitalfx]

I shoot DNG only and have not experienced this issue using LR...the previews are all full resolution.

Seems like the issue is on the iPad not seeing the larger previews.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Unfortunately, it's not obviously Leica's fault that some of the tools we use don't see all the previews provided.  But scanning previews to choose which files to upload at greater banddwidth cost is becoming a thing.  We could help by compilling a list of the tools that don't work as well as they should.  Leica is now able to talk effectively to Adobe and Capture One to change this, at least.

[Photoworks]

17 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Unfortunately, it's not obviously Leica's fault that some of the tools we use don't see all the previews provided.  But scanning previews to choose which files to upload at greater banddwidth cost is becoming a thing.  We could help by compilling a list of the tools that don't work as well as they should.  Leica is now able to talk effectively to Adobe and Capture One to change this, at least.

Do you think they have enough cloud to speak to the FOTOS app developers. there are so many limitations with it.

[scott kirkpatrick]

Leica employs the FOTOS app developers, which are a different group of people than the firmware developers, apparently. .  I would guess that pulling useful previews out of Leica's DNGs into Leica's FOTOS app would be a first step to show other apps what they should be able to do. The beta testers complained about this so it is known.  In Jono's review he points out that he had to run jpegs just to see quickly which files to upload.  I would hope that this and the setting DNG --> SD; JPG --> Internal file should get sorted out in the March firmware release.  (Which also should not brick our cameras upon restarting.)

 

My preference would be to shoot DNG-only, keeping the internal filespace for when my SD card overflows, and be able to review effectively on a tablet and upload very selectively.  I'm also looking forward to being able to update firmware from FOTOS in the future. Making both cards accessible as hunks of storage (not PTP, not Apple-only) in the next firmware release will also help simplify things.

Edited February 2, 2022 by scott kirkpatrick

[meerec]

7 hours ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

Unfortunately, it's not obviously Leica's fault that some of the tools we use don't see all the previews provided.  But scanning previews to choose which files to upload at greater banddwidth cost is becoming a thing.  We could help by compilling a list of the tools that don't work as well as they should.  Leica is now able to talk effectively to Adobe and Capture One to change this, at least.

I do not believe this is Apple’s issue not displaying the embedded preview correctly. This is the structure of the Leica’s DNG that come out of the M11 that is the culprit. The same iPad with the Files app doesn’t have the issue with Leica’s DNG files that come out of CL, SL, SL2, M10-R, the embedded previews are correctly picked up and displayed. 

[SrMi]

31 minutes ago, meerec said:

I do not believe this is Apple’s issue not displaying the embedded preview correctly. This is the structure of the Leica’s DNG that come out of the M11 that is the culprit. The same iPad with the Files app doesn’t have the issue with Leica’s DNG files that come out of CL, SL, SL2, M10-R, the embedded previews are correctly picked up and displayed. 

Apple and Adobe need to adapt their software to read M11 raw files correctly. M11's DNGs contain all necessary previews (the title of this thread is incorrect).

[scott kirkpatrick]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

Apple and Adobe need to adapt their software to read M11 raw files correctly. M11's DNGs contain all necessary previews (the title of this thread is incorrect).

Fotos may be aaking its own contribution to this "failure to communicate."  But Leica has been writing DNGs since the M8. And they are governed by a specification that is more than 20 years old.  Unfortunately, that spec has many options, and not all of them are supported by all of the tool vendors.  If I get time, I will look into what are possible differences between SL, M10-R, and M11 files to see if Leica did something too clever and original.  In a beta test, years ago, they had a great idea.  Legal, but it broke many of the most popular tools.  Beta testers argued about this for a bit, but it never saw a product release.

[meerec]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Apple and Adobe need to adapt their software to read M11 raw files correctly. M11's DNGs contain all necessary previews (the title of this thread is incorrect).

The title of the thread is correct: it is my title I chose for the thread I wanted to post. Why would it be incorrect? Yes - I’m implying something, triggering users to look into the post, and discuss. Is there something like a “correct title” or “incorrect title” and who is to make the judgement on this?
 

I’m not convinced by your argument that Apple or Adobe must change. It’s Leica who is producing a DNG file, DNG being a standard defined format, not any proprietary like say Canon RAW. They should have tested it better and make sure it’s working. If they ran out of time, or forgot to test it, it’s a bug and needs to be corrected.  

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[scott kirkpatrick]

6 minutes ago, meerec said:

I’m not convinced by your argument that Apple or Adobe must change. It’s Leica who is producing a DNG file, DNG being a standard defined format, not any proprietary like say Canon RAW. They should have tested it better and make sure it’s working. If they ran out of time, or forgot to test it, it’s a bug and needs to be corrected.  

You're missing my point.  The very old spec allows many things.  Adobe and Apple don't support them all.  When a new combination appears, first they cry that this is not legal, then they wait to see if users demand it to work, and finally they change (sometimes).  Adobe owns the spec, but it hasn't changed in a long time.