The snob camera.

[Stuart Richardson]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

I printed an exhibition of a photographer friend of mine who shoots everything on an Olympus pen (one of the digital ones). The prints were moderately sized, sharp as a tack and looked wonderful. I remember doing an exhibition for a photographer who was using a D7100 and a 50mm 1.4 AFD. The pictures were technically great. Sharp, clean, good color etc. That was around 2014 or 2015. I believe that around that time consumer cameras really started to offer most of what a photographer needs from a technical standpoint. A clean 24mp across the frame is plenty for most things, though of course most people in those entry level cameras are using less than great lenses.

Mind you, I am not saying that more is not better. I do think there is a visible quality difference in using larger formats and high resolutions, along with better and better lenses, but for most use cases it is no longer required. That leaves us to find the cameras that work best for our way of shooting. I love the flexibility to crop and the edge to edge sharpness of the SL2 and lenses, as it allows me to do whatever I want to with the files after the fact and still have great quality, all the while shooting a camera that is excellent to use. But I am sure that I could make most of my photos as well with a "lesser" camera. I just would not enjoy it as much. I also think I take better pictures when I am not faffing about with cameras that I find frustrating. I would rather be thinking about the scene, rather than some quirk of the camera.

[Herr Barnack]

As this thread evolves, I am sensing three themes that are present in the undercurrent -

1:  Leica loathing.  The viewpoint of non Leica owners, as manifested in the "rich snob" and other negative comments and name calling.  This loathing is based on the price of the M11 and the M lenses.  Some people want an M11, but they want to pay a price that they think the M11 should cost.  It doesn't work that way. 

2:  Kindergarten economics.  The belief that if a person wants something, that is justification enough; they are entitled to have it and have it now, regardless of any factors - including their ability to purchase the desired object.  It doesn't work that way in the adult world. 

3:  Leica guilt.  In this thread, we are seeing Leica owners tacitly admitting to being supposed "rich snobs" out of a guilt built upon the above emotion driven fallacies.

All three of these worldviews regarding Leica cameras and lenses in general and the M11 in particular are not based on objective thinking or reason. They just don't hold water in the real world. 

 

 

 

 

[Ornello]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

As this thread evolves, I am sensing three themes that are present in the undercurrent -

1:  Leica loathing.  The viewpoint of non Leica owners, as manifested in the "rich snob" and other negative comments and name calling.  This loathing is based on the price of the M11 and the M lenses.  Some people want an M11, but they want to pay a price that they think the M11 should cost.  It doesn't work that way. 

2:  Kindergarten economics.  The belief that if a person wants something, that is justification enough; they are entitled to have it and have it now, regardless of any factors - including their ability to purchase the desired object.  It doesn't work that way in the adult world. 

3:  Leica guilt.  In this thread, we are seeing Leica owners tacitly admitting to being supposed "rich snobs" out of a guilt built upon the above emotion driven fallacies.

All three of these worldviews regarding Leica cameras and lenses in general and the M11 in particular are not based on objective thinking or reason. They just don't hold water in the real world. 

I own several Leicaflex SL2 cameras and numerous lenses because they do exactly what I need. I feel no guilt for owning them. Could I do as well with a nice Pentax Spotmatic? No, even though the lenses Pentax that made were very good. The simple fact is that the Leicaflex is more advanced mechanically, very durable (I still own the first one I bought, new, in 1975) and easier to use. It helps me get the photographs I want with the least trouble and at an astonishing level of quality. 

The problem I see Leica facing is that one of the key virtues that Leica had in the past was durability (and longevity).  Many lenses were produced, unchanged, for decades (the 50mm Summiluxes for both M and R, for instance; the 21mm Super-Angulon-R, among many). A Leica lens could be purchased with the confidence that it was state of the art at the time of purchase, and would remain so for years. Thus, the 'cost', if amortized over decades of ownership, was very low. The 250mm Telyt-R first version that I paid $400 for in 1972 generally sells used for about the same now, and some people are asking double that!

The digital Ms do not seem to be made for the highest possible durability. Electronics deteriorate faster than mechanics, and are inherently more delicate. My 45 year-old Leicaflexes work like new (after Don cleans them up). Purchasing used equipment requires a little patience until Mr. Goldberg can find time to do his masterly work. I don't believe these digital Leicas will still be working (or fixable) 45 years in the future.

I note that Leica is promoting the M11 as 'the Legend', rather than as a tool. Longevity is not mentioned. I dislike that sort of promotion. Longevity is part of the 'justification' for the prices of Leica products.

https://leica-camera.com/en-MY/press/new-leica-m11-legend-reinvented

Compare this M3 ad: 'Lifetime investment in perfect photography'.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited February 1, 2022 by Ornello

[jaapv]

Longevity is not an argument in the digital world. Products usually last far longer technically than their usability. Obsolescence is the limiting factor. 

[Ornello]

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

Longevity is not an argument in the digital world. Products usually last far longer technically than their usability. Obsolescence is the limiting factor. 

Yes, and it undercuts the virtue that Leica has always striven for.

[pgk]

6 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

 I think for professionals and for a large segment of the serious amateur market, it is more about the experience of using a camera than the specs. If you can choose any camera, wouldn't you choose the one that you felt best using?

Only true if the camera system you enjoy the experience of using can actually do the job in hand. So its a big IF because personally speaking I have two systems - Leica and Sony - but I'd actually find more very useful simply because of lenses because some are more useful than others and not all makers actually make similarly specified lenses.

[Rick in CO]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

The presentation missed the point - it's the Rangefinder that makes the M-series unique.  I've used SLR cameras for many years, tried out a few EVF cameras and do not care for them, and am currently trying out a TL2 for when I need autofocus (and as a second camera with an M-adapter).  For me the M's Rangefinder is the only way to go, the Fuji X-Pro or anything else doesn't come close.  I will likely stay with my M10, after 5 years it still does everything I want or need.  I don't think I can afford the M11 if I have to put a Lamborghini in the garage!

[Ornello]

32 minutes ago, Rick in CO said:

The presentation missed the point - it's the Rangefinder that makes the M-series unique.  I've used SLR cameras for many years, tried out a few EVF cameras and do not care for them, and am currently trying out a TL2 for when I need autofocus (and as a second camera with an M-adapter).  For me the M's Rangefinder is the only way to go, the Fuji X-Pro or anything else doesn't come close.  I will likely stay with my M10, after 5 years it still does everything I want or need.  I don't think I can afford the M11 if I have to put a Lamborghini in the garage!

Which presentation? The first one on this thread? Pretentious snobs? What about people who buy Opus One?

https://www.opusonewinery.com/

Edited February 1, 2022 by Ornello

[tsleica]

1:  Leica loathing.  The viewpoint of non Leica owners, as manifested in the "rich snob" and other negative comments and name calling.  This loathing is based on the price of the M11 and the M lenses.  Some people want an M11, but they want to pay a price that they think the M11 should cost.  It doesn't work that way. 

Actually..

I think its the Leica lovers..that in the past..had great stuff to use..

And in the present..less so..

As it has become mostly a luxury product..

2:  Kindergarten economics.  The belief that if a person wants something, that is justification enough; they are entitled to have it and have it now, regardless of any factors - including their ability to purchase the desired object.  It doesn't work that way in the adult world. 

Most people can afford a Leica..if they really want to..

But..

The question really is..

Why..? Is it really worth it? Only the buyer can justify or rationalize this..

3:  Leica guilt.  In this thread, we are seeing Leica owners tacitly admitting to being supposed "rich snobs" out of a guilt built upon the above emotion driven fallacies.

All three of these worldviews regarding Leica cameras and lenses in general and the M11 in particular are not based on objective thinking or reason. They just don't hold water in the real world.

Never heard of Leica Guilt before..thats a new one on me..

But..

When does Leica Guilt..actually take effect..at the $15K mark..$25K...?...$100K?

$5K..lol..

Edited February 1, 2022 by tsleica

[Kwesi]

7 hours ago, RF’sDelight said:

This wired channel never got more views.

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Just a gentle reminder that this is meant as a funny spoof - emphasis on FUNNY

[Rick in CO]

23 minutes ago, Kwesi said:

Just a gentle reminder that this is meant as a funny spoof - emphasis on FUNNY

More reminiscent of the typical anti-Leica rants seen online - except for admitting that the M and its lenses are the ultimate best!

[charlesphoto99]

I'll never forget many years ago I was dating a woman who's father liked to take family snaps. I was using an M6/7 at the time, and she mentioned that her father always costed Leica cameras. So on a big anniversary trip with her family to Italy, his kids pitched in to buy him a used M6 and 35mm lens. He was blown away, but for the rest of the trip he dutifully wore the Leica around his neck but continued to take all of his pictures with a cheap point and shoot. I'm pretty sure that camera spent the rest of it's life only being pulled out and fondled on occasion.

No camera will make you a better photographer or even better photographs. It's all about what you are comfortable with and what tools one needs to make their vision come to life. Otherwise it's just a love of luxury goods and tech, though there's nothing wrong with that and what keeps Leica alive. Very few actual working photographers are buying $14k 35mm APO's I can tell you that. 

[rramesh]

I will not hesitate to buy a Leica lens for its superior quality and knowing that it will last for decades. 

However, Leica digital cameras, like all products with in-built electronics will not last more than 15 years due to parts obsolescence and shortages. Care must be taken to buy recent models in good condition, knowing that they will have a finite life.

Patek Philippe has a slogan "You never actually own a Patek Philippe, you just look after it for the next generation." Unfortunately it will never apply to a digital Leica.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by rramesh

[Herr Barnack]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

...

No camera will make you a better photographer or even better photographs. It's all about what you are comfortable with and what tools one needs to make their vision come to life. Otherwise it's just a love of luxury goods and tech, though there's nothing wrong with that and what keeps Leica alive. Very few actual working photographers are buying $14k 35mm APO's I can tell you that. 

Because there aren't any 35mm Summicron APOs that sell for $14k:  https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1627818-REG/leica_11699_apo_summicron_m_35mm_f_2_asph.html

[Photoworks]

1 hour ago, charlesphoto99 said:

Very few actual working photographers are buying $14k 35mm APO's I can tell you that. 

are you talking Canadian or Australian dollars?

I am a working photographer and I don't use the M11 for work. but I would use the M lenses on Sl2.

btw have you seen what cine lenses cost?

[charlesphoto99]

57 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

are you talking Canadian or Australian dollars?

I am a working photographer and I don't use the M11 for work. but I would use the M lenses on Sl2.

btw have you seen what cine lenses cost?

USD. Sorry, was thinking of the 75mm f1.25. 35mm APO is ONLY $8200, what a bargain! 

Of course about cine lenses, which is why they are almost always owned by rental houses. Very few cinematographers own their own gear, or they lease it (at least above the 16mm/digital equivalent level). Leica cine lenses are cheap compared to say Panavision. But yeah, I'm a working pro though I guess not financially at the level to drop what Leica want for one of their exotic lenses. I'm fortunate in that I bought a number of my lenses used pre-M8 when they were a veritable bargain. 28 cron for $1200, 24 elmarit same, 50 summilux pre-asph v4 for $999, and so on. 

[M9reno]

I think people are over-thinking this video.

[RF’sDelight]

vor 20 Stunden schrieb Kwesi:

Just a gentle reminder that this is meant as a funny spoof - emphasis on FUNNY

I think it’s not even funny but thanks anyway.

The appearance of this channel – which I would have been never come across without this thread – seems more like a machine generated non-sense experimental setup.

Let’s just move over to threads worth spending time on. Bye!

[Herr Barnack]

8 hours ago, M9reno said:

I think people are over-thinking this video.

I am coming to the same conclusion. 

This "review" is shallow nonsense, written by someone who sounds like they know nothing about photography or Leica cameras. 

As such, brush it aside and give it no merit.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Ba Erv]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

I am coming to the same conclusion. 

This "review" is shallow nonsense, written by someone who sounds like they know nothing about photography or Leica cameras. 

As such, brush it aside and give it no merit.

I generally give random YT videos about the same gravity as the philosophy written on the wall of a restroom stall in an interstate rest area.