Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[dpitt]

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1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Yes, I admit that M rangefinders do 90mm better than a Q2. Is that it?

Let me first state that I do find the Q2 a great camera. It reminds me very much of my Digilux2 which was actually my first Leica.

Yes, the M is adding lens choice from 15mm to 135mm, and is at its stronges in focusing and handling them between 28 and 90mm. On the M11 it would mean having the full dynamic range and resolution of 60MP available at 135mm, so cropping-zoom could give you 270mm with 15MP left, still plenty to enlarge wall size. But it is not that.

Let me try to explain to someone who seems to have had no hands on experience with the M. I suppose you never lived with an M digital for a longer period of time? My apologies if I am wrong:

• viewing through the RF gives you a very natural view, no DOF effect like a DSLR, just the feeling of being there in the scene.
  It seems to force my creative brain to imagine the photo to be taken before it is taken more than DSLR or EVF
• RF photography for me is a lot about capturing the moment. The RF view has no lag, so that helps.
  What also helps is seeing outside the frame. You can anticipate objects moving towards your frame.
• The simplicity and manual accessibility of all controls helps me focus on the creative process.
  It also gives me the power of control, the camera is never to be faulted if it fails. It was my focusing, my timing, my choice for diaphragm and  aperture...
  And when it succeeds this gives me the satisfaction that I nailed it perfectly.
• RF photography is hard work. I seldomly take home more than 200 photo's a day, but I get more keepers than before with my Nikon DSLR.
• The compactness of the M with lens is amazing. Pocketing the M with mounted lens is possible with 28-50 mm and even the Tele-Elmar 90mm will fit some of my coat pockets. A second lens is easy to carry in an other pocket. Of course I like the IQ of the M. But the primary factor that drove me to trying out the M is its compactness. My hope was that I would get a slight upgrade in IQ by upgrading my DSLR to the M and even slimming down the camera bag. But I got much more.
• I like FF, so that all my lenses act as they are designed

So if we need to find a competitor for me…
Start by picking a FF camera with lens and put in your pocket.
After it passes this test, check the requirements above and see what’s left…

Anyway if I can have all the above in the M, it is easy for me to compromise on the weaker points.

It's just for macro and long telework which the M would never do that I really look for other options.

[LocalHero1953]

12 minutes ago, dpitt said:

Let me try to explain to someone who seems to have had no hands on experience with the M. I suppose you never lived with an M digital for a longer period of time? My apologies if I am wrong:

The problems of trying to write with tongue in cheek.....!

I bought a M3 in around 1981 and used it with 50-90-135. I found I preferred the wider end, so swapped it for a M2 and 35 a few years later, which was sold for a M9 in 2011, itself sold for a M240. I eventually sold the M240 (2019?) because, between the CL and SL, it wasn't being used and the M10 added nothing I valued. However I bought a M4 a year ago and I've just put in a order for a new MP. 

So I'm very familiar with the strengths and weaknesses of the M series, digital and analogue! (and of the Q2, which replaced my CL). (That does not make my opinions right or anyone else's wrong.)

[Jeff S]

7 hours ago, pegelli said:

In the spirit of further kidding about a name for a camera that will probably never exist I would suggest "CM", as a successor to the Leica film CL which had a M-mount as well as a Messsucher but never acquired a full "M-series" designation. At least M comes after L in the alphabet so there is plenty of logic in that name for a successor to that other Leica orphan M-mount camera 😉

Did you miss the multi-year drama here regarding the Rumors site failed prediction (twice)?

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

Jeff

[pegelli]

4 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

Did you miss the multi-year drama here regarding the Rumors site failed prediction (twice)?

https://leicarumors.com/2018/05/28/new-leica-mirrorless-camera-to-be-announced-in-june-leica-c-m.aspx/

Jeff

Yes, it's a real drama when rumours don't materialise

But it was supposed to be L-mount, not M-mount so the drama isn't as deep as it could have been 😆

[Jipster]

46 minutes ago, dpitt said:

 

 

Let me first state that I do find the Q2 a great camera. It reminds me very much of my Digilux2 which was actually my first Leica.

Yes, the M is adding lens choice from 15mm to 135mm, and is at its stronges in focusing and handling them between 28 and 90mm. On the M11 it would mean having the full dynamic range and resolution of 60MP available at 135mm, so cropping-zoom could give you 270mm with 15MP left, still plenty to enlarge wall size. But it is not that.

Let me try to explain to someone who seems to have had no hands on experience with the M. I suppose you never lived with an M digital for a longer period of time? My apologies if I am wrong:

• viewing through the RF gives you a very natural view, no DOF effect like a DSLR, just the feeling of being there in the scene.
  It seems to force my creative brain to imagine the photo to be taken before it is taken more than DSLR or EVF
• RF photography for me is a lot about capturing the moment. The RF view has no lag, so that helps.
  What also helps is seeing outside the frame. You can anticipate objects moving towards your frame.
• The simplicity and manual accessibility of all controls helps me focus on the creative process.
  It also gives me the power of control, the camera is never to be faulted if it fails. It was my focusing, my timing, my choice for diaphragm and  aperture...
  And when it succeeds this gives me the satisfaction that I nailed it perfectly.
• RF photography is hard work. I seldomly take home more than 200 photo's a day, but I get more keepers than before with my Nikon DSLR.
• The compactness of the M with lens is amazing. Pocketing the M with mounted lens is possible with 28-50 mm and even the Tele-Elmar 90mm will fit some of my coat pockets. A second lens is easy to carry in an other pocket. Of course I like the IQ of the M. But the primary factor that drove me to trying out the M is its compactness. My hope was that I would get a slight upgrade in IQ by upgrading my DSLR to the M and even slimming down the camera bag. But I got much more.
• I like FF, so that all my lenses act as they are designed

So if we need to find a competitor for me…
Start by picking a FF camera with lens and put in your pocket.
After it passes this test, check the requirements above and see what’s left…

Anyway if I can have all the above in the M, it is easy for me to compromise on the weaker points.

It's just for macro and long telework which the M would never do that I really look for other options.

Whoah, exactly what I went through (also from a Nikon DSLR, the D610, which I kept for long telephoto and video). I particularly like the no lens blur, depending on aperture, part, as this is rarely talked about, but in practice surprisingly important (to me).

[Jeff S]

8 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Yes, it's a real drama when rumours don't materialise

But it was supposed to be L-mount, not M-mount so the drama isn't as deep as it could have been 😆

The forum lit up in anticipation, regardless, and bashed them when it didn’t materialize, especially after they doubled down on the prediction. Lots of entertainment.  Anyway, the point was that the CM designation has a noisy history here.

Jeff

 

[Jeff S]

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24 minutes ago, pegelli said:

Yes, it's a real drama when rumours don't materialise

 

I should have added that this was so actively discussed that, in a rare move, Leica execs issued a formal statement to refute the rumor.

Jeff

[01af]

Am 7.12.2022 um 03:52 schrieb JulyLL:

I believe there is a clear market for a well-built M model with EVF and autofocus. Leica is truly missing a giant opportunity here ...

Oh no, not again ...

[Herr Barnack]

38 minutes ago, Jeff S said:

The forum lit up in anticipation, regardless, and bashed them when it didn’t materialize, especially after they doubled down on the prediction. Lots of entertainment.  Anyway, the point was that the CM designation has a noisy history here.

Jeff

 

There is something greatly cathartic about throwing failed soothsayers to the wolves. 

Or maybe it's just great fun. 😁

[Jeff S]

Mostly there was disappointment and anger over wasted time, as there were many enthusiastic supporters for the anticipated camera, and debates over its potential specifics.  From the M9 until the CM debacle, the Rumors site had actually built some credibility, even partnering with Leica for the Q announcement.  

Jeff

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, raizans said:

 

IMO, the last real advantage of medium format digital is its fidelity of small detail, and its purity and depth of color and tones that come from the larger photosites.

Exactly. Which results in better edge contrast and thus better transitions in both density and colour. But I was comparing 135 digital to MF film. 

[01af]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb raizans:

... the last real advantage of medium-format digital is its fidelity of small detail, and its purity and depth of color and tones ...

Yes.

.

vor 2 Stunden schrieb raizans:

... that come from the larger photosites.

No.

Instead, the larger format's advantages come from the sensor's (or film's ) larger format. The photosites' size has nothing to do with it.

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, Musky said:

The SL3 is coming. You can adapt all your M glass to that. 

Are you responding to the right post? That's an answer to a question I haven't asked.

[lct]

1 hour ago, Musky said:

You can go SL2 for more MP or wait for the SL3 then with the new sensor. 

Problem is the SL3 will be an SL camera hence again a compromise as far as M lenses are concerned. Even if it were less bulky than current SL's, the SL3 will not be as compact as an M and will not be able to things a mere M can do like auto zoom that is a unique feature of M mount cameras. 

[raizans]

1 hour ago, 01af said:

Yes.

.

No.

Instead, the larger format's advantages come from the sensor's (or film's ) larger format. The photosites' size has nothing to do with it.

"What this means, in practicality, is that the actual sizes of the photosites or pixels on medium format sensors are also larger, and this contributes to a number of beneficial factors for how an image looks. Just as important as a higher resolution, larger pixels afford better efficiency with light gathering, a better signal-to-noise ratio, and they contribute to improved color and tonal rendering, as well as greater edge definition, dynamic range, and they limit the effects of diffraction."

https://www.bhphotovideo.com/explora/photography/tips-and-solutions/explaining-the-medium-format-look

[raizans]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Exactly. Which results in better edge contrast and thus better transitions in both density and colour. But I was comparing 135 digital to MF film. 

You were talking about DOF, so I thought you were talking about the transition from the plane of focus to the out-of-focus area. Odd use of the word transition, though.

[jaapv]

I'm not alone - see this Petapixel article.

https://petapixel.com/2020/08/21/the-power-of-transitions-a-theory-of-landscape-photography/

[raizans]

The author is talking about visual transitions (contrasts), i.e., big to small, dark to light, cool to warm.

Edited December 8, 2022 by raizans

[01af]

vor 57 Minuten schrieb raizans:

"What this means, in practicality, is that [...] and they limit the effects of diffraction."

All this sounds nice but is nonsense.

Image size makes a difference, pixel size doesn't.

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[sometimesmaybe]

3 hours ago, Musky said:

How about the newer GFX? 

there is a difference, but i wouldn't say it's something that should keep you awake at night. unless i'm doing a side by side comparison on a 4k screen, i don't think i'd be able to see the difference. i run out of talent long before gear limitation becomes a real issue.

but that won't stop me from buy more gear though... i've accepted the fact that i'm just a 'gear'tographer 🤫