Would you buy an EVF only M camera? [MERGED]

[Lelmer]

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10 hours ago, lct said:

The Visoflex 2 works well for them/us. The point is to build it into the body instead of having a bump over the rangefinder.

Is there any kind of focus confirmation on the Visoflex? Focus confirmation is what I'd like.

Edited March 18, 2024 by Lelmer

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[lct]

Focus magnification, auto zoom & focus peaking.

[Jeff S]

On 3/17/2024 at 9:56 AM, dsalamena said:

The whole point of a possible EVF M, though, is to make focusing easier, faster and more precise.  Otherwise there would no point in making a EVF, we are all happy with the rangefinder mechanism so far. 

I use RF only, but others may want an EVF for more accurate framing, not just for focusing, including use of wider/longer lenses.

Jeff

Edited March 18, 2024 by Jeff S

[Stevejack]

On 3/18/2024 at 6:06 AM, dsalamena said:

Can’t really image what would be the point of making an hypothetical EVF M camera, unless it is to make focusing easier especially for aging people whose sight is not perfect anymore. 
Leica can use a M or Q body, whatever it’s technically easier, but the basic idea, in my opinion, should be based on a small body with a M mount, EVF, manual focus and some sort of focus confirmation. Eye auto detection and IBIS would be useful additions, again if technically possible. 
Anything different would be useless: we already have wonderful M manual focus and SL/Q autofocus systems. There would be no point in replicating something that already works well. 

I'll be very interested to see if they can come up with something that makes focusing using the EVF easier. Focus peaking is not very helpful especially at narrow apertures, zooming in works well for wider apertures but it's clunky. The rangefinder is quick and accurate to use at all apertures but lacks finesse for very fast lenses. If they can come up with a good system for manual focus using the EVF I'll be extremely happy. 

Leica have clearly been gearing their newer M lenses towards EVF use, the close focus ability is a prime example. I'm sure they'll come out with something but I'm not particularly confident that Leica can innovate in this market. They seem very reliant on bolting other manufacturers tech into their own bodies and trying to make it work. Old tech at that. The SL3 is not an impressive camera and if it's indicative of any future EVF only M then my hopes aren't high at all in regards to it having innovative features.

[ksrhee]

Yes, I understand that different people have different needs, but I, for one, bought my M because of the RF focusing and OVF.  If M converts to EVF, then I have no interest in that camera.  

[mattcheol]

Simple answer is a "yes" for me. 

But it obviously should not come at a cost of replacing the regular M line of cameras as there are tons of purists out there who would never accept that. So long as it is just another option and not a replacement, I say why not? 

[lct]

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5 hours ago, Stevejack said:

I'll be very interested to see if they can come up with something that makes focusing using the EVF easier. Focus peaking is not very helpful especially at narrow apertures, zooming in works well for wider apertures but it's clunky. The rangefinder is quick and accurate to use at all apertures but lacks finesse for very fast lenses. If they can come up with a good system for manual focus using the EVF I'll be extremely happy.

Problem with the RF, if any, is the need to recompose for framing given that the RF partch cannot move. It is not that fast a focus aid for this reason. With a bit of practice, focus peaking can be significantly quicker. As for auto zoom, it allows to magnify automaticlly the focus point when turning the aperture ring, and this at working aperture to avoid focus shift issues. Not sure what better manual focus system can be implemented actually. Don't get me wrong i've been a RF lover since the seventies but even with an eyesight corrected by cataract surgery i appreciate what mirrorless cameras and the Visoflex 2 can bring to the party. YMMV.

Edited March 19, 2024 by lct

[KFo]

I use LV for focusing my  APO-Telyt-R 180 f/3.4 (no RF coupling).  I know it's not an EVF, maybe better, maybe worse. I find the focus peaking a bit cludgy compared to the RF.  This is always on a tripod.

The whole thing of tapping to zoom to the area you want in focus, open lens wide, focus, reset to whatever f/stop you are shooting, zoom out to check composition, and finally click.  You can actually do this with something that might move?  I'm imagine that involves twiddling the thumbwheel and 4 way selector when done through an EVF but still a fraught process.

I think if this the process you want, other makers will give to you already and Leica will as well with SL/Q cameras.  Just use an autofocus system.  No M lenses for you!

No wonder I see posts about "missed shots."

[lct]

1 hour ago, KFo said:

[...] The whole thing of tapping to zoom to the area you want in focus, open lens wide, focus, reset to whatever f/stop you are shooting, zoom out to check composition, and finally click. [...]

No need to tap for auto zoom with the Visoflex 2. You just need a lens having focus cams, typically an M lens, in order to activate the roller cam of the camera. When using, say, a Tele-Elmar 135/4 you just have to turn the focus ring to trigger image magnification on the focus point. Same in LV mode with the LCD.

Edited March 19, 2024 by lct

[KFo]

20 minutes ago, lct said:

No need to tap for auto zoom with the Visoflex 2. You just need a lens having focus cams, typically an M lens, in order to activate the roller cam of the camera. When using, say, a Tele-Elmar 135/4 you just have to turn the focus ring to trigger image magnification on the focus point. Same in LV mode with the LCD.

Right!  Same with my old Hektor.

I still don't see it.  Played with LV focusing with a coupled lens a few times; mostly for testing when thought something was wrong.  My rating compared to the RF👎.

I still say no Leica Mevf.  As option in parallel with a RF M.  No!  I contend it's the wrong tool.

 

[pgk]

3 hours ago, lct said:

Problem with the RF, if any, is the need to recompose for framing given that the RF partch cannot move. It is not that fast a focus aid for this reason. With a bit of practice, focus peaking can be significantly quicker. As for auto zoom, it allows to magnify automaticlly the focus point when turning the aperture ring, and this at working aperture to avoid focus shift issues. Not sure what better manual focus system can be implemented actually.

Problem with EVF is the need to zoom in then select the point of focus, manually focus, switch from zoomed to full view, compose and take picture. It is not that fast a way of focusing. With a bit of practice it can get a bit quicker but it cannot be as quick as RF (I do use both methods).

I see no advantages using an EVF for lenses designed for RF myself as I find them quicker and easier to focus using the rangefinder. However EVF does offer advantages with fast (and obviously longer) lenses although there are the usual drawbacks of moving subjects.

In all honesty I find that different systems have their strengths and weaknesses however a hybrid system has, in my experience, more weaknesses. At times (adapted lenses) an EVF manual focus system is the appropriate solution though.

This topic has been done to death. Yes and EVF M might suit a few people but most of its advantages are at best marginal IMO. Having shot a lot of different lenses on EVF cameras, I can accept that they do work ok but not that they are as easy to use as would be preferable. If this is acceptable then fine, but to me the RF remains a better solution for rangefinder lenses (and I do use them on EVF cameras although usually (not exclusively) on a tripod. Handheld I find that the best way to operate is using MF lenses stopped down when they are mounted on an EVF camera.

Others will, of course disagree, convinced that their experience is different.

[lct]

3 minutes ago, pgk said:

Problem with EVF is the need to zoom in then select the point of focus, manually focus, switch from zoomed to full view, compose and take picture. It is not that fast a way of focusing.

Auto zoom can make things much faster. Suffice it to turn the focus ring the same way as you do with in RF mode. Then focus magnification triggers automatically. Half press the shutter button to compose and shoot.

 

[pgk]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Auto zoom can make things much faster. Suffice it to turn the focus ring the same way as you do with in RF mode. Then focus magnification triggers automatically. Half press the shutter button to compose and shoot.

Yes, this is the way some Zeiss manual focus lenses work on Sony cameras and it helps but the Zeiss lenses are auto aperture so faster in operation anyway.

[lct]

Zero problem for me. Does no harm to try.

[lct]

2 hours ago, KFo said:

Played with LV focusing with a coupled lens a few times; mostly for testing when thought something was wrong.  My rating compared to the RF👎.

Mine depends. I feel RF faster when i don't need to nail focus in spite of the focus/recompose waste of time. Otherwise focus peaking is the faster and focus magnification the more precise at 60 mp.

[KFo]

39 minutes ago, lct said:

Mine depends. I feel RF faster when i don't need to nail focus in spite of the focus/recompose waste of time. Otherwise focus peaking is the faster and focus magnification the more precise at 60 mp.

Do you find it distracting in terms of composition?  Focus peaking that is.

[ksrhee]

Nobody can read the future, but at this point, I don't think Leica will do this.  There is no incentive for them to change the M camera, given its current status.  If the sales go way down, they might reconsider.  Those who want the EVF system can purchase the SL system.  If anything, the interchangeable Q will happen before anything happens with the M system.  

[lct]

Just now, ksrhee said:

There is no incentive for them to change the M camera

Nobody has ever asked for such a change so far.

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[ksrhee]

11 minutes ago, lct said:

Nobody has ever asked for such a change so far.

What's the title of this posting?  

Would you buy an EVF only camera with an M mount?  

[lct]

1 hour ago, KFo said:

Do you find it distracting in terms of composition?  Focus peaking that is.

If it were red i would but i set it in white so it does not bother me personally. Matter of taste and/or eyesight i guess.

Edited March 19, 2024 by lct