Return brand new M10-R black paint for M11?

[M9reno]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

2 hours ago, Artin said:

I am very defensive over the direction Leica took with the advancement of the system.

Defensive (O.E.D. definition):  “Of a person, attitude, expression, etc.: motivated or characterized by a desire to defend or justify oneself; (also) that rejects, challenges, or is oversensitive to real or perceived criticism…”

[Daedalus2000]

8 minutes ago, M9reno said:

Defensive (O.E.D. definition):  “Of a person, attitude, expression, etc.: motivated or characterized by a desire to defend or justify oneself; (also) that rejects, challenges, or is oversensitive to real or perceived criticism…”

Come on, he means supportive

[M9reno]

5 minutes ago, Daedalus2000 said:

Come on, he means supportive

My bad!

[Tailwagger]

2 hours ago, shirubadanieru said:

Yeah I feel the new M11 users are very defensive of their new camera lol it’s just a camera guys...

Forgive me for seizing on your statement, not directed at you.

I know these are cameras are sans mirror, but perhaps it's time for some non-M11 owners to look into one.  On these pages we have multiple posts and threads touting every one of the previous generations of M as being superior to the 11 by folks, most of whom (not you), have never touched one. And of course, the chest puffing isn't found in their own respective sub forums, nope, the intent, conscious or otherwise, is to be confrontational.

I've yet to see any M11 owners jumping on the M9-M10 sub forums raving over how much better the M11 is than any of them and how only a putz or a pauper wouldn't trade up. Can you imagine the uproar if they did?!? No, I find current owners of previous Ms to be far, far more defensive. This borne out by the constant need to go on the offensive with threads like why I wont buy an M11 or M9 your next camera. And if we're being honest, we all know exactly why this is happening.  Fear of having been obsoleted. Those of us who own the M11 are simply getting a little tired of this sort of crap, preferring instead to discuss and explore the new camera's capabilities rather than being forced to endure and engage in verbal fratricide.  Some of the more passionate ones are just, understandably in my view, a little testy about it.  

[M Journey]

37 minutes ago, Tailwagger said:

Forgive me for seizing on your statement, not directed at you.

I know these are cameras are sans mirror, but perhaps it's time for some non-M11 owners to look into one.  On these pages we have multiple posts and threads touting every one of the previous generations of M as being superior to the 11 by folks, most of whom (not you), have never touched one. And of course, the chest puffing isn't found in their own respective sub forums, nope, the intent, conscious or otherwise, is to be confrontational.

I've yet to see any M11 owners jumping on the M9-M10 sub forums raving over how much better the M11 is than any of them and how only a putz or a pauper wouldn't trade up. Can you imagine the uproar if they did?!? No, I find current owners of previous Ms to be far, far more defensive. This borne out by the constant need to go on the offensive with threads like why I wont buy an M11 or M9 your next camera. And if we're being honest, we all know exactly why this is happening.  Fear of having been obsoleted. Those of us who own the M11 are simply getting a little tired of this sort of crap, preferring instead to discuss and explore the new camera's capabilities rather than being forced to endure and engage in verbal fratricide.  Some of the more passionate ones are just, understandably in my view, a little testy about it.  

I agree with this sentiment.  It’s like getting on the forums of another city’s sports team and trashing their players or their coach.

I also think many m11 owners are trying to make sure potential m11 owners aren’t swayed from getting one based on untrue statements and biased criticisms.

There is also @Artin’s viewpoint of embracing the changes and making sure Leica knows it.  If this forum only has posts about how Leica users don’t like the changes, Leica might embrace that. Leica needs to know that many of their owners welcome and value technology upgrades.

Regarding the fashion accessory comment, my last two cars were white (I’m not rich and so I’m at 10 years with my current car) and my next car will also be white.  If I buy a jacket, it’s usually black.  My only mechanical watch is silver, not gold.  If I buy wooden furniture it’s always painted a dark brown.  There is nothing wrong with wanting something with a certain color way or feature if there is an option.  And often times if it doesn’t come in a color or style that I like, the item won’t be attractive, regardless of other features.

Before buying into the m system I was looking forward to adding the Nikon z9 and 50 1.2 and eventual 85 1.2 lenses to my kit.  I decided to get into the m because of quality of the m35 apo lens and the rumored features of the m11, and the idea of being able to have the m with me more often then the Nikon z6 or z9.  If the Leica M wasn’t advancing to be closer to other digital cameras I would not be a Leica customer today and in 20-40 years when the old school loyal Leica base ages out there would be no customer base to replace them and keep Leica in business.  Very little new Leica users care about things that current users wax nostalgic about.  They want technology, accuracy, and ease of use.  Exactly what Leica improved on the m11.

Maybe the reason why there are so many m10 and older loyalists on the m11 forum is the same reason why there are so many trolls on the San Francisco 49ers forums this week, their team is no longer in the playoffs…go m11, I mean Niners!

 

Edited January 26, 2022 by M Journey
Spelling

[M9reno]

People, come on. No one here is trashing the M11.  This forum would be a worse place if everyone completely agreed, or if sub-forums were filled with nothing but undiluted praise for people's separate "sports teams".

Those frustrated with reading opinions different from their own, or who just want a bit of cheerleading should perhaps consider an "I love my M11" thread.

[jakontil]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

5 hours ago, Artin said:

I am not defensive over the M11 because I bought one , I bought an M10R and was very happy with it . I am very defensive over the direction Leica took with the advancement of the system. They packed a lot of great features in there without compromising the core values of the system and all we get are these bull sh!# complaints about sound and stickers. 

great feature for whom? the core value like RF?

i see... 

[jakontil]

5 hours ago, grahamc said:

I thought at the time the release of an M10 variant with all the big crowd favourites of top script, BP and other nice touches so close to the M11 was a bit of a giveaway that the next generation would represent a big step forward in other areas.    i.e. Purchasers having their camera in some ways significantly superseded by the next gen so soon would not feel harshly treated because the variant they purchased had these also-extremely-nice 'features'.

I would say it worked and hence the debate.   Let's be honest they must both be exceptional cameras.

I'd probably go for the 10R on the basis that I like baseplates, don't have a BP camera, don't care too much for the huge file size of a 60ish MP camera (I have another), and most importantly of all I very much doubt I can take significantly better images with one of them versus the other . 
 

The other reason in the mix for me is that I find the experience of shooting with a completely silent shutter a little odd, meaning that the e-shutter is not relevant for myself.

The presumably more malleable files, better metering and extra DR  - I don’t “think” I really need / want them at this point for the way I enjoy to use my M.

 

it is all the features that you have been mentioning there mate

i feel exactly what u mean.. i miss the old film days... when none comparing DR, ridiculous high iso which the number is mind blowing, hell knows when im gonna use it, i think im probably too old fashioned but when the light is off i stop taking photos i feel that 3200 is probably the max iso i use and 6400 when it's emergency state

 

[NicholasT]

4 hours ago, grahamc said:

Good vibe and congrats on your purchase. 

Can I ask how the m11 is decreasing size of your kit ? 

Enjoy the camera !

@grahamc further to your question I had a peak design 5 L everyday sling which has been sitting in my closet for years since it was too small to fit any of my photo gear.

I just loaded everyday sling with M11 with EVF + 35mm Summilux ASPH + two lens (total of 3 lens) + Really Right Stuff mini tripod, caps, filters etc and there's still room to spare! ( photo ) 

I realize this is no news flash to those who have been using their M's along, but its a newfound experience for myself and possibly for others who have had M's in the past and found it necessary to migrate to other cameras.

The compact kit combined with the quality of the EVF and early grab shots, the high resolution sensor, improved battery life among many other improvements have fully convinced me that returning to the M fold with the M11 was the right move for my photography.

I would encourage others who may have sought refuge in other Leica cameras (or other brands) due to issues with prior M's, to take a closer look at the M11. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[tashley]

On 1/25/2022 at 7:11 PM, Jacobjuul said:

Last week I purchased a brand new M10-R BP since I thought it would take a long wait before we would actually be able to buy the M11 (going by other brands like Nikon). 

To my surprise the M11 seems readily available at my local dealer (and probably the rest of the world too). I still haven't taken it out of the box yet, so I have about 1.5 weeks to return it. 

Having never owned a modern Leica(I have an M9), I am not sure how much I'd be giving up by going with the M10-R. The Black paint is nice, if it's like my MP, but on the other hand it's silly to forego a better camera just because of some nice paint. 

 

Any advice would be appreciated.

I bought an M10-R a month before the announcement. Took it on holiday, shot about 600 frames, loved it, swapped it out for the M11 as a no-brainer from my POV because the M11 solves so many long running issues. all of which have been listed by other people here. What I will add is that the new camera thrill and exploration phase rarely comes along in two consecutive months and having shot both of the cameras with a lot of interest and attention, the M11 is just better. Do the upgrade. You will most likely regret it if you don't.

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, NicholasT said:

@grahamc further to your question I had a peak design 5 L everyday sling which has been sitting in my closet for years since it was too small to fit any of my photo gear.

I just loaded everyday sling with M11 with EVF + 35mm Summilux ASPH + two lens (total of 3 lens) + Really Right Stuff mini tripod, caps, filters etc and there's still room to spare! ( photo ) 

I realize this is no news flash to those who have been using their M's along, but its a newfound experience for myself and possibly for others who have had M's in the past and found it necessary to migrate to other cameras.

The compact kit combined with the quality of the EVF and early grab shots, the high resolution sensor, improved battery life among many other improvements have fully convinced me that returning to the M fold with the M11 was the right move for my photography.

I would encourage others who may have sought refuge in other Leica cameras (or other brands) due to issues with prior M's, to take a closer look at the M11. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Thanks ! Looks great 

I agree the M is becoming closer to other camera choices with this much-improved sensor , of course also with important differences 

I have the same bag they are perfect for these kits aren’t they 

[grahamc]

1 hour ago, jakontil said:

it is all the features that you have been mentioning there mate

i feel exactly what u mean.. i miss the old film days... when none comparing DR, ridiculous high iso which the number is mind blowing, hell knows when im gonna use it, i think im probably too old fashioned but when the light is off i stop taking photos i feel that 3200 is probably the max iso i use and 6400 when it's emergency state

 

I too like to use my M with great difficulty, part of the fun ! 😂

[Jacobjuul]

2 hours ago, tashley said:

I bought an M10-R a month before the announcement. Took it on holiday, shot about 600 frames, loved it, swapped it out for the M11 as a no-brainer from my POV because the M11 solves so many long running issues. all of which have been listed by other people here. What I will add is that the new camera thrill and exploration phase rarely comes along in two consecutive months and having shot both of the cameras with a lot of interest and attention, the M11 is just better. Do the upgrade. You will most likely regret it if you don't.

Thanks, that's very useful and probably what I know deep down. I guess reading all the complaints about the M11 just affected me. (shutter lag/sound/sony colors, probably from people who don't own the camera, but still...)

Edited January 26, 2022 by Jacobjuul

[Tailwagger]

9 minutes ago, Jacobjuul said:

I guess reading all the complaints about the M11 just affected me. (shutter lag/sound/sony colors, probably from people who don't own the camera, but still...)

Bingo. 

[Kwesi]

29 minutes ago, Jacobjuul said:

I guess reading all the complaints about the M11 just affected me. (shutter lag/sound/sony colors, probably from people who don't own the camera, but still...)

Hi Jacobjuul,

I've been part of the M ecosystem of photographers for about 30 years now and I can say unreservedly that the M11 is a technological tour de force in the M universe. In videos you see the folks at Wetztlar who played a part in its development beaming with pride because they understand what an accomplishment it is to honor one's history while forging forward. When I look at my silver M11 next to my M3 I am truly amazed at this feat given that my two cameras are 61 years apart. In all honesty, it would be a shame for you to not begin your M journey with the M11.

[grahamc]

7 hours ago, NicholasT said:

Thanks @grahamc 

Re the reduction in the size of my kit, I sold my M10 and prior to that M240 a long time ago due to challenges focusing with range finder, in spite of my actual enjoyment of the process itself.

Prior to todays M11 purchase I've been shooting with Q2 or SL2. When I want to travel light I just take my Q2 with the obvious single lens limitation. I own some very fine glass for SL2 but even the more compact SL primes are 2x to 3x the size/weight of the average M lens.

With the purchase of the M11 I plan to keep my 24-90 and probably one of my SL primes, but will otherwise switch to M glass for use with M11 when traveling light or on my SL2 when out shooting landscapes (short walks). 

For street shooting I periodically plan to combine Q2 with the M11 + 75mm lens in relatively small bag. Sometimes I find that switching lens in the field results in totally missing the  moment. Having a relatively compact second camera/focal length at the ready can at times make all the difference.

This sounds like a lovely set up   I’m sure a 50mm on that M11 will be a joy also with the Q2 on the street days 

[shirubadanieru]

I have the camera, and I agree with the above comments; I don’t think it makes sense for people to make comments based on what they heard from a friend of a friend lol or from what they think X feature means…makes no sense. It’s like that Steve Huff video, the guy didn’t even try the camera and did a review based on a spec sheet and what he heard from friends; pointless.

 

At the same time, the early adopters sometimes can get too excited, for example when I read the ‘positive’ comments here, it makes it feel like M11 is like a revolution, something that surpasses by miles and miles all other M cameras, and while it’s an advancement, it’s still a nice upgrade to what was already a great camera. If you use the M9, you’ll get great results, and from my experience, I was getting a better battery performance out of my M9 than my M11…go figure. If you use an M10, or M10-R, you will definitely be fine. I don’t think anyone needs to upgrade, and the changes, while meaningful to some, won’t matter much to others. 

 

So, it’s ok to provide a more grounded view (from those who’ve used /own the camera) and just thought it was ok. I still think the camera provides an amazing upgrade, and it’s great, but not as great as some are saying (from my view). After reading the reviews, my expectations were maybe too high, but here’s what I felt it’s not revolutionary / amazing as reviews say:

• Battery life (maybe it’s my own camera, I’m asking Leica to do further analysis here so this is not a final statement): my battery runs out as fast as previous models (in all models I used it with LV off, standby to 2min, screen off) and always got anywhere between 400~600 shots. With the M11 using the same approach, after 270 shots I was at 40%.
• ISO Performance: Was expecting much more here; the reality is that I see a lot of color noise in shadows from ISO 2500 onwards. A bit disappointed but hey, I’m fine with ISO 800 of the M9 so not a deal breaker for me
• Bugs: My camera has a few significant bugs…sometimes I press the shutter and it doesn’t fire, sometimes the menu does not select a profile, sometimes when I turn lens detection off it shows ‘off’ in the menu, other times it shows 16 - 18 - 21…whatever the hell that means lol Leica needs to provide a firmware update, fast. (Again not sure if it’s my camera that’s broken, or if it’s the M11 platform that’s a bit buggy in general…can report back once I hear back from Leica customer care in a week or so).

 

Other than that, perfect M camera. Is it worth the money? If you have the M9/10/10r, and if you shoot like me (street/travel/portraits, no LV, no EVF, etc) then I don’t think you need to upgrade. If you want to have the latest M camera, of course, you should upgrade. That’s what I did anyway ahah so go for it if you’re curious!

Edited January 26, 2022 by shirubadanieru

[NicholasT]

57 minutes ago, grahamc said:

This sounds like a lovely set up   I’m sure a 50mm on that M11 will be a joy also with the Q2 on the street days 

Yes you read my mind. 50mm is on its way. I pre-ordered the new Voigtlander 50mm F1.

Really curious to see how it performs.

I'm pretty sure that wide open performance won't disappoint. What will be interesting to see is how it compares with 50mm APO Lanthar stopped down.

I doubt it will rival the performance of that lens stopped down, but hoping it comes close so I can use it as a solid all around 50 (including landscapes). 

Edited January 26, 2022 by NicholasT

[NicholasT]

50 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

I have the camera, and I agree with the above comments; I don’t think it makes sense for people to make comments based on what they heard from a friend of a friend lol or from what they think X feature means…makes no sense. It’s like that Steve Huff video, the guy didn’t even try the camera and did a review based on a spec sheet and what he heard from friends; pointless.

 

At the same time, the early adopters sometimes can get too excited, for example when I read the ‘positive’ comments here, it makes it feel like M11 is like a revolution, something that surpasses by miles and miles all other M cameras, and while it’s an advancement, it’s still a nice upgrade to what was already a great camera. If you use the M9, you’ll get great results, and from my experience, I was getting a better battery performance out of my M9 than my M11…go figure. If you use an M10, or M10-R, you will definitely be fine. I don’t think anyone needs to upgrade, and the changes, while meaningful to some, won’t matter much to others. 

 

So, it’s ok to provide a more grounded view (from those who’ve used /own the camera) and just thought it was ok. I still think the camera provides an amazing upgrade, and it’s great, but not as great as some are saying (from my view). After reading the reviews, my expectations were maybe too high, but here’s what I felt it’s not revolutionary / amazing as reviews say:

• Battery life (maybe it’s my own camera, I’m asking Leica to do further analysis here so this is not a final statement): my battery runs out as fast as previous models (in all models I used it with LV off, standby to 2min, screen off) and always got anywhere between 400~600 shots. With the M11 using the same approach, after 270 shots I was at 40%.
• ISO Performance: Was expecting much more here; the reality is that I see a lot of color noise in shadows from ISO 2500 onwards. A bit disappointed but hey, I’m fine with ISO 800 of the M9 so not a deal breaker for me
• Bugs: My camera has a few significant bugs…sometimes I press the shutter and it doesn’t fire, sometimes the menu does not select a profile, sometimes when I turn lens detection off it shows ‘off’ in the menu, other times it shows 16 - 18 - 21…whatever the hell that means lol Leica needs to provide a firmware update, fast. (Again not sure if it’s my camera that’s broken, or if it’s the M11 platform that’s a bit buggy in general…can report back once I hear back from Leica customer care in a week or so).

 

Other than that, perfect M camera. Is it worth the money? If you have the M9/10/10r, and if you shoot like me (street/travel/portraits, no LV, no EVF, etc) then I don’t think you need to upgrade. If you want to have the latest M camera, of course, you should upgrade. That’s what I did anyway ahah so go for it if you’re curious!

In the very short time I’ve had the M11 I’m generally very impressed.

That said, I had similar reaction to ISO performance.

Maybe I was expecting too much from a 60MB sensor but based on color noise will be trying to keep it at 1600 and below with max ISO set to 3200.

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[setuporg]

Don’t return anything.

An actual return is an ethics violation on this forum (just like not aspiring for a Noctilux).

An idea of a return is only entertained, perhaps even discussed, but not acted upon.  You simply keep all things and enjoy them in turns.