meaningful and meaningless M upgrades

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, setuporg said:

Well SL2 chooses focus points using some kind of AI.  I don’t know what goes into multi field metering these days.  Eg would it try to detect faces to expose them properly as a priority?  Surely it’s now possible and is only a matter of time when a firmware update supports it.

From Leica manuals:

This metering method is based on the detection of multiple values. These values are used in an algorithm to calculate an exposure value appropriate for a good rendering of the assumed main subject.

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[setuporg]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

From Leica manuals:

This metering method is based on the detection of multiple values. These values are used in an algorithm to calculate an exposure value appropriate for a good rendering of the assumed main subject.

Which is exactly what they call AI now, any algorithm operating on values and making decisions for you.:)

[SrMi]

Just now, setuporg said:

Which is exactly what they call AI now, any algorithm operating on values and making decisions for you.:)

AI is much more than just algorithms. Center-weighted also uses algorithms to combine the measurements in the center and around the edges, but in a different way than multi-field metering.

[setuporg]

1 minute ago, SrMi said:

AI is much more than just algorithms. Center-weighted also uses algorithms to combine the measurements in the center and around the edges, but in a different way than multi-field metering.

I've been in AI since it was called ML or "data mining" you'd be surprised what they call AI now (a simple if statement is now AI.:). An algorithm trained on previous data (from good shots) is certainly AI nowadays... 

[SrMi]

14 minutes ago, setuporg said:

I've been in AI since it was called ML or "data mining" you'd be surprised what they call AI now (a simple if statement is now AI.:). An algorithm trained on previous data (from good shots) is certainly AI nowadays... 

Until Leica mentions that they use AI, we cannot assume they do. Take Google News example, its article analysis, selection, and clustering algorithms worked without AI.

[didier]

On 1/23/2022 at 10:19 PM, UliWer said:

But I am still sceptical that a shutter always going "open-close-open-close-open" is to preferred to one doing the simple "close-open-close". It's not the sound which bothers me. It's the lack of simplicity. 

I fully agree with you !

The M11-P should offer the good old metering system we have all grown up with  , with the possibility to use it with the simple close-open-close shutter

This would also allow for a significantly reduced shutter lag (Sean Reid estimates the M11 to have about 17ms more shutter lag than the M10) and so come closer to the M7 shutter responsiveness (12 ms). For portraits of my young and very active children, a reduced shutter lag is a real game changer  

[SrMi]

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16 minutes ago, didier said:

I fully agree with you !

The M11-P should offer the good old metering system we have all grown up with  , with the possibility to use it with the simple close-open-close shutter

This would also allow for a significantly reduced shutter lag (Sean Reid estimates the M11 to have about 17ms more shutter lag than the M10) and so come closer to the M7 shutter responsiveness (12 ms). For portraits of my young and very active children, a reduced shutter lag is a real game changer  

The good old metering system is still here (spot and center-weighted). In some situations, image quality is improved by metering off the sensor (less ghosting and flare).
I doubt you can notice the increased shutter lag, especially when combining all other elements that contribute to the total lag. No M11 owner has yet noticed the increased lag.
A simplification would be to use EFCS: close-open.

Edited January 25, 2022 by SrMi

[didier]

Just now, SrMi said:

No M11 owner has yet noticed the increased lag.

May I advise you to read Sean Reid’s (as always) excellent Review

[SrMi]

Just now, didier said:

May I advise you to read Sean Reid’s (as always) excellent Review

He writes what I said: 

So the lag is so small that one is very unlikely to perceive it or have it affect the timing of their photography.

Did you read something different?

[analog-digital]

Am 23.1.2022 um 23:44 schrieb M9reno:

Leica came up with an answer to this problem rather recently, probably not by coincidence.

https://store.leica-camera.com/uk/en/shipping-and-payment-terms

• Payment by financing

We are pleased to introduce 0% APR and 9.9% APR financing on a large selection of items. This programme guarantees peace of mind when purchasing your favourite Leica gear. Pay monthly and at ease by choosing the right financing plan for you. 

- 0% APR financing is now available on the Leica M10-R, Q2 Monochrom and Noctivid for up to 24 months. It is a one-off process, simple and fast with no waiting required. T&Cs Apply*.
- 0% APR financing is also available on any purchase or order above £5,000 for up to 12 months. T&Cs Apply*.
- 9.9% APR financing is available on all Leica products for up to 24 months with a minimum spend of £350 and a minimum deposit of 10% required upfront. Amount based on the final price of the selected item. T&Cs Apply*.

 

• Payment by financing??????

Really? Are there people who lease or buy a camera on credit? What a nonsense.

[didier]

Just now, SrMi said:

He writes what I said: 

So the lag is so small that one is very unlikely to perceive it or have it affect the timing of their photography.

Did you read something different?

I read he measured a 17ms difference in shutter lag, which is meaningful (in my view) as the total shutter lag of a film M is not more or even less

I have always been very sensitive to that parameter

[IkarusJohn]

Boy, is this thread informative, or a pissing competition?

There have been many threads on this forum which have been incredibly useful; some where exchanges of view have caused reassessment of opinions; none where repeating an opinion with greater commitment have achieved anything; and more than a few where those exchanges of opinion have offended or just irritated the hell out of everyone else, with no apparent benefit …

Just saying.

[rramesh]

I'm sensing a 15 ms lag between the M11 and M10 sites on this forum .... 

Edited January 26, 2022 by rramesh

[M Journey]

9 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Boy, is this thread informative, or a pissing competition?

There have been many threads on this forum which have been incredibly useful; some where exchanges of view have caused reassessment of opinions; none where repeating an opinion with greater commitment have achieved anything; and more than a few where those exchanges of opinion have offended or just irritated the hell out of everyone else, with no apparent benefit …

Just saying.

It feels like this is a fight for the soul of the Leica M system. Modernizers vs Romanticizers.  Once Leica releases a SL camera in a M body that will lead to a three-way bedlam as the Genrebenders enter the fray...

 

[Herr Barnack]

16 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Boy, is this thread informative, or a pissing competition?

There have been many threads on this forum which have been incredibly useful; some where exchanges of view have caused reassessment of opinions; none where repeating an opinion with greater commitment have achieved anything; and more than a few where those exchanges of opinion have offended or just irritated the hell out of everyone else, with no apparent benefit …

Just saying.

Where would we be without the occasional Richard measuring contest??

Even the best of circuses needs a side show. 😎

Edited January 26, 2022 by Herr Barnack

[pgk]

3 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Where would we be without the occasional Richard measuring contest??

Probably far better off.

[pgk]

21 hours ago, Photoworks said:

Multi metering is not even close to AI... it just more predictive metering using the full frame.

and for all the mistrusting people Multi Metering is an improvement and not a new Technology 

Multi metering is what it always was; a form of automation. It provides an answer to metering which solves a problem in ways we cannot determine, so obviously it is a form of automation. It has its place if you are in challenging and fast changing lighting which is when it gives 'reasonable' results most of the time. That said reviewing a histogram whilst shooting using manual settings in constant lighting will still give excellent and very accurate results. I never understand this hang up over metering systems (centre-weighted, spot, musti, matrix, whatever) because at the end of the day exposure is not a fixed parameter and needs to be determined on subject and end requirement basis, something which no camera can do.

[SrMi]

10 minutes ago, pgk said:

Multi metering is what it always was; a form of automation. It provides an answer to metering which solves a problem in ways we cannot determine, so obviously it is a form of automation. It has its place if you are in challenging and fast changing lighting which is when it gives 'reasonable' results most of the time. That said reviewing a histogram whilst shooting using manual settings in constant lighting will still give excellent and very accurate results. I never understand this hang up over metering systems (centre-weighted, spot, musti, matrix, whatever) because at the end of the day exposure is not a fixed parameter and needs to be determined on subject and end requirement basis, something which no camera can do.

Leica lost its soul when it added TTL metering. After that, the world was never the same again. And don't get me started on that video thing in M240!

🤣

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[hdmesa]

 

On 1/23/2022 at 12:13 PM, setuporg said:

Quality of course.  See the complaints so far.  Half baked means not completely baked, eg each fn button must have been cooked to perfection.

Of course folks are free to do as they please, but we arrive at some consensus here about what makes sense.  I'd like to call attention to the fact that some previous upgrades were ridiculous and this one is not.  The new folks can then also take into account the fact that others judge certain upgrades less meaningful than others.

You're confusing new model upgrades with incremental model upgrades. Incremental (P) upgrades are more targeted at those that didn't upgrade to the non-P. Some will upgrade to every model. Sounds like a profitable business model compared to other manufacturers that only offer model upgrades.

 

On 1/23/2022 at 12:52 PM, Herr Barnack said:

Apparently some M11s have bugs/glitches.  The obvious solution is to -

1.) Return it and require the dealer to replace it with a new in box M11;

2.) Take the replacement M11 home and try it out.  if it too has bugs/glitches, repeat 1.) above as many times as is necessary.

The law of probability dictates that sooner or later, you will end up with a 100% functional M11 with no bugs/glitches. 

Yes, this would be a pain in the @$$ - but it would be less of a pain in the @$$ than having a $9000 USD camera that doesn't work right.

Please, no one return your M11 until we have a firmware update or you're close to your return window expiring. Even the button issue is supposed to be fixed with a firmware update. Maybe this was discussed already, but I didn't want to weed through 6 pages of this thread to find out – too much useless stress for my brain 

Edited January 26, 2022 by hdmesa

[kivis]

I bought the M-P 240 upgrade and I couldn't be happier. Hooray Leica!!