meaningful and meaningless M upgrades

[SrMi]

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13 minutes ago, setuporg said:

Do you see any reason to keep both now?

Yes 😄.

The reason is that all M-s are a bit different and I enjoy shooting with all of them. I am missing an M240 (traded it in). Maybe a red M240 would be nice 😁.

M10-R is a also good backup camera, though the batteries are different.

Edited January 24, 2022 by SrMi

[pgh]

4 hours ago, Artin said:

You know where the absolute sham in the whole cycle was ?  The M10R. Which I must say was a brilliant marketing ploy.  They took the base M10 add a new sensor with a hearty premium and a year later bring the M11’s and price them at that huge premium.. so the incremental price hike between the base M10 and base M11. 2500 dollar US.  Yup they duped us we took it in hook line and sinker 

That and it used to be that if you were looking at premium-ish cameras - you could look at Leica vs the digital medium formats that were available and if you squinted hard you could justify Leica bodies because they were a similar price for a much better experience, even though the IQ was demonstrably inferior. The thing that's kinda crazy to me now is that digital medium format continues to creep down in price while the Leica goes up. For the first time you can get some of the best IQ out there (aside from Phases) in a GFX 50R for 3k new! Or 100 mp for 6k. Pay 3x your 50 mp MF camera that for the new Leica.

If you're considering image quality, make large prints etc, (as I do), the Leica premium hasn't just jumped $2500 from the M10 - it's comparatively jumped much higher. And I do consider these cameras as sort of competitors to Leica because all are systems that people use slowly and deliberately - no one is buying for crazy AF or buffer speeds - with these cameras it's all about the file and the ux. The practical value - which was already hard to justify just became an exercise in near self deception. I know, I know, there are a lot of differences in these cameras I am glossing over but the direction of pricing is notable. 

I'm just some youngish working photographer though, so these are business decisions for me with real implications unlike white collar professionals sitting on maxed out retirement accounts, which I know is more Leica's target - and I don't begrudge them for that because I want them to stay a healthy business. 

[pgh]

6 minutes ago, Artin said:

Are you seriously comparing the Fuji medium format cameras to the Leica M.
never mind the size of the body on those cameras the lenses are ridiculous, I don’t think walking around with a lens the size of 2 litre coke bottle will cut it for the most of us  

Yes I seriously did it! And then I specifically mentioned why I did so and put in the appropriate qualifications just to satisfy all of the "but no" comments - alas, I did not spend enough time spelling out that I understand all of said differences and listing them all. I'm so sorry I rankled your knickers. 

[IkarusJohn]

26 minutes ago, Artin said:

Guys think about it , I used the same metering for decades as well but let’s face it, you always had to work around something that was mediocre and inaccurate. 
now you have a much better system that works under some very difficult lighting conditions. What the heck is missing ?

Defensive, much?

I know you like your M11, Arthur.  And I'm very happy for you.  But, let's stick to reasonable assessment, shall we?  No, the old method is not "mediocre and inaccurate" - it's centre weighted average metering available on most cameras as an option.  Is multi-zone metering more accurate?  Sure, in some circumstances.  Is it the most accurate?  No.  Stick a grey card on the most important part of your image and spot meter it, and you'll get close to "accurate", whatever that means.

I do find this fixation on one particular method of metering curious.  A number of M iterations ago, we had a member proclaiming that the camera was "iso invariant", so metering had become irrelevant.  Any metering is a representation of what you see, which can be adjusted (to a point) in post.  To be honest, the biggest change I have found was with the TL2 and SL using exposure simulation - I didn't need to use the meter at all.

Do I like multi-zone metering?  Sure, I use it all the time on my other cameras.  But, I'm not at all convinced that I need multi-zone metering on an M in preference to centre-weighting.  I want consistency.  What I don't particularly want is the shutter open all the time on an M camera - it serves no purpose, uses battery unnecessarily, and changes the way the shutter operates.  Does it matter?  I guess not, as a number of my cameras (past and present) have had to close the shutter, then expose - on the Hasselblad 500 series, you had to then wind the shutter open again.  

But I don't like it, I think it was an unnecessary change - and now that it is out of pandora's box, there's no going back.

[digitalfx]

3 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

 I think it was an unnecessary change - 

It may have been removed to save space...maybe the new sensor and associated boards requires additional room. They mentioned in the tech talk that they were able to better protect the sensor from reflections because the meter was removed.

Id love to have both options...I like the new meter, but since ive spent the past 40 years with a center weighed meter I'm more confident in using it.

[dkmoore]

Center weighted metering is still an option on the M11. It’s just done off the sensor. 

[IkarusJohn]

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11 minutes ago, Artin said:

Well that said I like the multi zone metering always did in fact the first time I was aquatinted was back in the early 90s with the fabulous Nikon F4. 
and now finally it’s in the M 11 it took them 3 decades but they finally got it right 

It's been an option on the M since the M(240).

[IkarusJohn]

Just now, Artin said:

Yes it was but was not very efficient, it was kind of weird.

Well, here's another way of looking at it (without hyperbole) - centre-weighting, multi-zone and spot metering are, and have always been available with all M cameras since the CMOS sensor was adopted.  Those options are a factor of live view.  Centre-weighted metering off the shutter is a factor of using the EVF ... to date.

The M11 is now full time live view.  That may appear to be a subtle, and for many irrelevant, change.  But for many it isn't.  

Here's a question - can you set the M11 to centre-weighting in the menu so it is the default option when using the OVF?

[shirubadanieru]

2 hours ago, Artin said:

Man enough about the metering already... the old metering was awful it never worked properly. The new system is better it does not drain the battery and just remember to shut the damn camera off when you change a lens 

btw I didn't change lenses, at all lol that's the most intriguing part to me on how did the dust got there 😳 but anyway it's a dust I can't remove by myself with a blower (also fyi after using Leica cameras for 8y it's the first time I have to go to Leica to get the sensor cleaned up). 

& the old metering works fine, never had any issues with it. 

[setuporg]

1 hour ago, Artin said:

I don’t think walking around with a lens the size of 2 litre coke bottle will cut it for the most of us  

I feel thirsty now!

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, SrMi said:

Yes 😄.

The reason is that all M-s are a bit different and I enjoy shooting with all of them. I am missing an M240 (traded it in). Maybe a red M240 would be nice 😁.

M10-R is a also good backup camera, though the batteries are different.

For those who have both M10M and M10R, this further amplifies the battery/charger hell.  If you trade in one, you're practically bound to trade in the other when M11M comes out.

[SrMi]

42 minutes ago, Artin said:

Yes you can set it to centre weight when using OVF 

To clarify: you can set to spot, center-weighted, or multi-field both in EVF and OVF.

[digitalfx]

1 hour ago, shirubadanieru said:

btw I didn't change lenses, at all lol that's the most intriguing part to me on how did the dust got there 😳 but anyway it's a dust I can't remove by myself with a blower (also fyi after using Leica cameras for 8y it's the first time I have to go to Leica to get the sensor cleaned up). 

& the old metering works fine, never had any issues with it. 

cleaning a sensor glass is easier than cleaning a lens. Get a kit and do it yourself, it literally takes 5 minutes.

Its not the actual sensor you are cleaning btw.

[shirubadanieru]

6 minutes ago, digitalfx said:

cleaning a sensor glass is easier than cleaning a lens. Get a kit and do it yourself, it literally takes 5 minutes.

Its not the actual sensor you are cleaning btw.

is there a kit you recommend? I never tried this because until now all my dust was easily removable with a blower & I'm afraid to damage anything.

[digitalfx]

5 minutes ago, shirubadanieru said:

is there a kit you recommend? I never tried this because until now all my dust was easily removable with a blower & I'm afraid to damage anything.

They make swabs the size of the sensor...should be 24mm

[SrMi]

For cleaning sensors, my recommendation are the following steps (abort when the sensor loupe show satisfactory results):

1) Blower

2) Arctic Butterfly Sensor Brush

3) Wet cleaning

 

[digitalfx]

Search "visible dust"

 

[charlesphoto99]

4 hours ago, Artin said:

Man enough about the metering already... the old metering was awful it never worked properly. 

It's called the metering in your head. No matrix, spot, EVF etc needed here - just knowing after twenty five years of M central metering what it does and how to adjust in my brain for it (and in post, though this is pretty close to sooc). Rarely do I have a bad exposure. M10, 135mm APO

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[SrMi]

11 minutes ago, charlesphoto99 said:

It's called the metering in your head. No matrix, spot, EVF etc needed here - just knowing after twenty five years of M central metering what it does and how to adjust in my brain for it (and in post, though this is pretty close to sooc). Rarely do I have a bad exposure. M10, 135mm APO

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As you said: 25 years of experience. It will be included in M12 :).

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[Stevejack]

Spot is probably easiest to get used to coming from the old system - the measuring patch is about the same size and location as the rangefinder patch, so take a reading from the area of interest and done.