M10R Owners: Is the M11 Worth the Upgrade?

[SrMi]

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25 minutes ago, Łëïčä said:

Tripod won’t help if what you’re photographing is moving. The camera can be perfectly still but if the subject is swinging a golf club, then the club is going to look like a U. 

I have 8TB of images, but not a single image of a swinging golf club 🤣.

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[Łëïčä]

5 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I have 8TB of images, but not a single image of a swinging golf club 🤣.

Anything that moves will be warped. 

and that’s just the jelly effect. Not mentioning the nasty banding. People who haven’t used e-shutters will have a rude awakening. 
 

I guess people who want to shoot models at f1.2 in the middle of the day can now do it wide open without filters. 
 

let’s remember this isn’t a Nikon Z9. 
 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Łëïčä

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Łëïčä said:

Anything that moves will be warped. 

and that’s just the jelly effect. Not mentioning the nasty banding. People who haven’t used e-shutters will have a rude awakening. 
 

I guess people who want to shoot models at f1.2 in the middle of the day can now do it wide open without filters. 
 

let’s remember this isn’t a Nikon Z9. 
 

It is good to warn others about electronic shutter problems if they do not have experience with it. I was joking because "not again that golf club example" :). 

I have experience with the electronic shutter from a1 to X1D. M11's readout speed is entirely usable (as is a7rIV's, apparently). 

It would be nice if M11 could support 12-bit mode for faster readout. 

In addition to the rolling shutter effect (and banding in artificial light), M11's electronic shutter has a longer shutter lag than the mechanical shutter.

 

[Łëïčä]

8 minutes ago, SrMi said:

It is good to warn others about electronic shutter problems if they do not have experience with it. I was joking because "not again that golf club example" :). 

I have experience with the electronic shutter from a1 to X1D. M11's readout speed is entirely usable (as is a7rIV's, apparently). 

It would be nice if M11 could support 12-bit mode for faster readout. 

In addition to the rolling shutter effect (and banding in artificial light), M11's electronic shutter has a longer shutter lag than the mechanical shutter.

 

All true. 
 

I think in the world of Leica, we should stop using the word “upgrade”. Instead let’s just call it “changing”.
 

Will you be changing your M10 for the M11? 
 

my hope is that Leica figures out a way to keep the M an M and not make it into another mirrorless camera. 
 

having said that I totally see why the M11 should fit more seamlessly with the SL and Q. After all it’s a business and a lot of pros using an SL would like an M as part of their kit and you don’t want the change to be so jarring. 
 

on the other hand, you have to keep the M a legit simple rangefinder for all. Not a simple task. 
 

aluminum and an exposed USB-C port though? Yikes!

Edited January 21, 2022 by Łëïčä

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, Łëïčä said:

All true. 
 

I think in the world of Leica, we should stop using the word “upgrade”. Instead let’s just call it “changing”.
 

Will you be changing your M10 for the M11? 
 

my hope is that Leica figures out a way to keep the M an M and not make it into another mirrorless camera. 
 

having said that I totally see why the M11 should fit more seamlessly with the SL and Q. After all it’s a business and a lot of pros using an SL would like an M as part of their kit and you don’t want the change to be so jarring. 
 

on the other hand, you have to keep the M a legit simple rangefinder for all. Not a simple task. 
 

aluminum and an exposed USB-C port though? Yikes!

I picked up my M11 on the first day. In my book, there are many improvements with M11, which makes upgrading to M11 reasonable. M11 is 100% a digital rangefinder, I don't need another mirrorless camera.

[Łëïčä]

Just now, SrMi said:

I picked up my M11 on the first day. In my book, there are many improvements with M11, which makes upgrading to M11 reasonable. M11 is 100% a digital rangefinder, I don't need another mirrorless camera.

Changing let’s say. 
 

I don’t see the M11 as an “upgrade” at all. It’s just a different M. 
 

it’s new and people are excited. I get it. 

[SrMi]

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12 minutes ago, Łëïčä said:

Changing let’s say. 
 

I don’t see the M11 as an “upgrade” at all. It’s just a different M. 
 

it’s new and people are excited. I get it. 

I own M10-P and M10-R, and I would certainly call M11 an upgrade, no question about it. I am not selling my M10-R, though.

[charlesphoto99]

My favorite excuse for the 'need' to upgrade to an M11 is the mythical lost baseplate. Next thing you'll know we'll be hearing about the utter fear and panic of possibly losing an M11 battery in order to change the SD card... LOL

[John Smith]

1 hour ago, Łëïčä said:

Those who traded an M10R for an M11 is because they’re in it for the gear. They’ll constantly be buying new stuff. All the time. 
 

some people are into photography and others into gear. Pretty sure they traded the M10 to the 10P and the 10P to the 10R and now the 10R to the M11 and soon they’ll go to the M11P. And on and on it goes. 
 

as far as I’m concerned, if you’re more worried about your photos, there’s really no reason to upgrade any M, unless of course some sort of issue is getting in the way of you making the images you want to make; then of course you change. Any of your M cameras, if they’re working for you now, then they’ll keep working for you. 
 

Every M camera since the M9 has beautiful characteristics that work for different photographers. It depends on the resulting image. What sort of images are you trying to make? What sort of lenses do you use?

They’re all good. Any differences between the M10R and the M11 are academic. I don’t see any reason to “upgrade”. Just put an extra battery in your pocket. Electronic shutter? Nobody is really going to be using that. Aluminum body? Nobody wants that. Everything that matters about taking a photo is basically the same. Both cameras give you amazing raw files you can manipulate to suit your taste. 
 

A significant change for me in terms of every day use would’ve been for the m-shutter to be able to go to 1/8000. Other than that, I think most will just use this in 37MP mode once the “new toy syndrome” wears off, and I guess the only real benefit will be that they’re able to go on the whole day with just 1 battery instead of the tragedy of having to put a small extra one in your pocket. 
 

as far as the metering. People have been using the center weighted metering since the digits Leicas were created and they’ve been making beautiful images. This metering is good, it has only been getting better, in the M10R is accurate, it is very predictable, once you know you’re camera you can pretty much nail the exposure, and the highlight recovery is amazing anyway. So this is another much ado about nothing. 

You could make the same argument with cars. I know a few guys who get a new car about every year. A little more bells and whistles. A little more horsepower. Maybe a change in the dashboard. Then I know others who've driven the same car for the last ten years because it gets them from A to B and they'd rather spend their money on something else. Maybe an M. To each his own.  

[Łëïčä]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:52 PM, johnbuckley said:

in other words, I think that, as wonderful as the M10-R is, the M11 delivers sizable, monetizable advantages.

All wishful thinking. The first review right here in the forum says the 18MP files serve no purpose other than being smaller and that the grain is worse and not uniform. Ugly and grainy. 
 

You just want a new toy. That’s all. And it’s okay to want new toys. The 10R is already excellent in low light. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Łëïčä

[Łëïčä]

6 minutes ago, John Smith said:

You could make the same argument with cars. I know a few guys who get a new car about every year. A little more bells and whistles. A little more horsepower. Maybe a change in the dashboard. Then I know others who've driven the same car for the last ten years because it gets them from A to B and they'd rather spend their money on something else. Maybe an M. To each his own.  

That’s right. And there’s nothing wrong with that Btw. 
 

my civic is 10 years old. It’s the gen 9 so the most boring of all the Civics. But it’s tough as nails. If buy the new one I won’t go into a 3 page post talking about how wonderful the new one is. I’ll just say, I’m buying it because it’s new and I want a new car. It’s fun and I want a new toy and it has apple car play. 
 

but here people go into this rant about how the M11 is so revolutionary when in reality nobody will really see any significant difference between a great photo taken in a 24MP M240 and an M11.

one of the guys commenting here posted an M11 photo of his baby and dog. They were all fuzzy and generic. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

but reading the posts you’d think it’s the best camera ever made in history and it’s So much better than anything before. It’s all so stupid. 

Edited January 21, 2022 by Łëïčä

[david strachan]

2 hours ago, Łëïčä said:

That’s right. And there’s nothing wrong with that Btw. 
 

my civic is 10 years old. It’s the gen 9 so the most boring of all the Civics. But it’s tough as nails. If buy the new one I won’t go into a 3 page post talking about how wonderful the new one is. I’ll just say, I’m buying it because it’s new and I want a new car. It’s fun and I want a new toy and it has apple car play. 
 

but here people go into this rant about how the M11 is so revolutionary when in reality nobody will really see any significant difference between a great photo taken in a 24MP M240 and an M11.

one of the guys commenting here posted an M11 photo of his baby and dog. They were all fuzzy and generic. 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

but reading the posts you’d think it’s the best camera ever made in history and it’s So much better than anything before. It’s all so stupid. 

It's hard to argue with your thoughts.  

Enjoy your new car.

 

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, Olaf_ZG said:

To be clear, doubting between SL2(s) or m10r/m11. 

all cams have great specs; long exposure possibilities (upto 16min plus LENR) will be the deciding factor. 
 

Two minutes dark frame with lens cap on, no LENR, ISO64, is very, very, noise free.

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[Łëïčä]

2 minutes ago, david strachan said:

It's hard to argue with your thoughts.  

Enjoy your new car.

 

I’m not getting a new car! 🤣 hell no. I’m gonna ride mine until the wheels fall off. 
 

People should try it with their Leica Ms. 

[david strachan]

Well enjoy whatever anyway... 

[lencap]

Can someone tell me what LENR is?   (xxNoiseReduction?)

I have an SL and Q, and, I admit, I’m not a very skilled photographer.  My friend shoots with an iPhone and his images are striking.  For me owning a Leica is like having a Ferrari and driving it to Costco at the speed limit - complete overkill.  But I enjoy my cameras anyway.

I just signed up for online photography classes at my local college.  I’m hopeful that when the course is complete that given what I’m creating now, to my eye my Q images will look like an SL2/APO combo, and my SL images will look like a M11/APO at 60MB resolution.  That’s my poor man’s way to avoid GAS.   Fee  for the class $100/$10 week. Leica M11 $8995.  

Even though my images are crudely created, and my editing/Photoshop skills are even worse, I enjoy the experience.  As a side benefit as a senior, carrying a SL with the 24-90 lens is all the daily exercise I’ll ever need!  Gym membership savings: $200/month, and no COVID exposure.

I’ll also admit, that whether objective or subjective, I like Leica’s approach to photography in all aspects, especially haptics and “feel”.   Holding the SL/Zoom lens combo is like shooting film - if your camera was a Nikon F film camera with a battery driven autowinder.  They both gave you the feeling that if you dropped your camera the pavement would crack before you damaged the camera. They both were heavy beasts, and they both feel special to this day.  SL savings versus film: at $20/roll, about $500 per 1,000 images.

And, finally, Leica’s marketing is very effective.  Makes me believe that I can emulate the greatest photographers of all time just by joining the Leica family.  Priceless..

Overall keeping old gear is the answer - less expensive, great physical exercise, the SL can serve as a hammer or protective weapon in a pinch, and the Q does everything you really need - autofocus or hyper-focal setting with real depth of field markings, great macro capability, single attached lens that weighs less than my zoom lens, and enough extra money to pay for a trip to take some actual photos.

It’s a hobby, and whatever it costs is purely subjective.  If I enjoy it, and I can afford it, it doesn’t matter much to me what others think (that’s one of the great joys of getting old).  If I were a pro getting paid, the math would be driven by ROI, turnaround time and other business decisions.  That’s the other benefit of aging - none of those things matter anymore.

So my advice is simple, first - get old, then do whatever you feel like.  Enjoy the hobby with other people, and be grateful that such wonderful gear exits in a wide range of flavors and costs.  It would be a dull world if all we had were the equivalent of efficiency - like black model T cars they would work, but wouldn’t necessarily be much fun.

Enjoy, and be grateful - that’s the final bit of wisdom gained by aging.  If a M11 is your preferred choice great, if not you have a lot of choices: S, SL, R, Q, TL, TC, and the original M.

Edited January 22, 2022 by lencap

[SrMi]

53 minutes ago, lencap said:

Can someone tell me what LENR is?   (xxNoiseReduction?)

 

The menu entry Noise Reduction controls LENR (long exposure noise reduction). If turned on and with longer shutter speeds (>2sec?), the camera will take a second dark frame to remove any noise or hot pixel that may appear in long exposure. This means that a 2-minute exposure will last 4 minutes (2 minutes exposure + 2 minutes dark frame).
My initial long exposure tests show that M11 is well suited for long exposures (see image thread).

Edited January 22, 2022 by SrMi

[Altayr]

M10-R BP owner here.

wont upgrade now, might wait for a M11P or M11 (special edition) to make it worth while.

 reasons:

1. there is always something to improved especially on first editions of the M series, we had the M (type240), M10 go through the same process. 

2. waiting for long term review on those aluminum bodies 

3. a special edition or a black paint edition will be something I always look forward to. 

Edited January 22, 2022 by Altayr

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[LUF Admin]

Short notice from the admin: User Łëïčä is banned. Was the – uhm let me count – 4th account of a banned member.

Andreas

[aristotle]

OK...back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I've been reading the posts over the past week and for me....

If Leica agreed to show up at my front door with a new M11 and agree to a direct exchange with my M10R, I'd say "of course.  Thanks!!!"

If I have to head down to Leica DC to negotiate a deal on the exchange of my M10R and end up needing to pay a couple$K plus exhange the M10R and then wait months for the M11, I'd say..."thanks but no thanks"...

Someplace between the two and I'd think about it, but it's not likely.  For me, it's more a matter of a tipping point.  My M262 was, and is a fantastic camera, and there was absolutely no need to upgrade to the M10R.  There were enough intervening years such that the upgrade in resolution and sensitivity were nice to have, and the jolt of enthusiasm associated with playing with the new camera got me out and photographing more...so that was great.  There just isn't enough to provide the tipping point for me on the M11.  The discussion of color isn't terribly relevant to me.  The M10R is great, and I end up tweaking color on any photo I print anyway.  I never use autoexposure and my brain has the M10R calibrated perfectly (so far as I can tell, it's identical to the 262) for pretty much any scene type.  I charge the battery after every outing.  Extra resolution and sensitivity is always welcome, but I don't miss what I don't have.

I'll probably wait several years until I have enough of an itch to scratch regardless of new features or capabilities...and keep the M10R when buying the M14, like I kept the 262 when buying the M10R.

I like reading all of these posts though!