Why I will not be getting a M11...

[Photoworks]

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50 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Thanks for taking the time Peter, there is some great info here . 

Not to stray too far off topic here but In response to your comments about 'pixel shake' ....do you have any regrets (if that's the right word, but probably a little strong !) in upgrading to M10-R ?  ( I am presuming you made that step from M10 but I could be wrong there of course).     The reason I ask is I am thinking to go from M10 to M10-R.  Like you , I feel these 40 ish MP cameras to be quite future-proof and of course the GAS is calling as usual for an M10R BP .

But if 24-36 is indeed a sweet spot I'd be quite interested whether you would advise others to make that step to the R sensor .

Part of my justification is that as a 10-D user I sometimes do have the need for a screen    M10-M is tempting but if I'm going to invest in a body for the use of the screen then it may also aswell shoot colour.

To keep on thread topic, this is all in the context of the fact that I won't be buying an 11 right now (but never say never) as I'm still keen for some of the purer features of the 10 line (removable baseplate, etc) .  But maybe I am just a late adopter .  

I did have the pleasure of handling an 11 recently and the weight reduction and finish was really nice btw. 

 

I went from M10-P to M10-R a year ago. you may think that the sensor was fine and don't need higher resolution.

I think the M10-R changed the way I expose and shoot,  the better resolution and the ability to expose correctly and not overexpose the highlights is a pleasure ...

I tough that the M10-R was the most complete camera and it is a keeper. Even if some of you buy the M11, the M10-R is the ultimate M10 camera .

Well the M11 came into the house and I have been shooting for a few week in different scenarios.  When you use it extensively you will appreciate the innovation that was put into the M11.

in my daily use I didn't find myself over shooting the shutter to 1/2000 to freeze images to much. I have used it just I was using the M10-P. occasionally there is camera shake at 1/60, but I often go down to 1/30 or 1/15 to let people blur and keep the seen in focus with good results. In this cases I would take multiple shots and pick the best one.

Today I did an interior photography shoot on SL2 and M11, some with Models and Flash photography.
The wifi connection from the SL2 was frustrating on iPad Pro , slow and I had to reconnect over and over again.

The M11 was a dream to connect with USB-C cable and shoot people int the space, the client was watching the images flash on the iPad Pro quickly in the Fotos app, you preview the images while they are on the SD card in the camera.

I am very exited about the new tether feature option coming up for the M11 with support in Capture one and Lightroom. even more exiting would be when C1P mobile will come up this year for iPad.

The new sensor is better than the M10-R, but not the reason enough to change to M11. I mostly use it at 60mp. as a professional photographer I have many times needed it, but it is not for everybody and the lower res of 36 is perfect for many people. I tend to always improve my quality instead of talking about the need or not of high-res sensors.

I use to shoot film for many years and have scanned lots of it. looking back I wish 35mm film had more resolution. I am thinking to keep up with the times, I don't want to limit myself now to 36mp, future proofing for the next 10 year. The expectation of future generations is probably for more resolution and details.

 

I like that the camera is lighter. I like that high iso has improved, the images look cleaner and retain lots of color even at 12500. I like that startup of wifi is quicker. I like the option of an electronic shutter, even if I probably will not use it often and only in situation where is it good to use. This new tools make the M11 enjoyable , not now the M10-R is staying home.

[grahamc]

22 minutes ago, Photoworks said:

I went from M10-P to M10-R a year ago. you may think that the sensor was fine and don't need higher resolution.

I think the M10-R changed the way I expose and shoot,  the better resolution and the ability to expose correctly and not overexpose the highlights is a pleasure ...

I tough that the M10-R was the most complete camera and it is a keeper. Even if some of you buy the M11, the M10-R is the ultimate M10 camera .

Well the M11 came into the house and I have been shooting for a few week in different scenarios.  When you use it extensively you will appreciate the innovation that was put into the M11.

in my daily use I didn't find myself over shooting the shutter to 1/2000 to freeze images to much. I have used it just I was using the M10-P. occasionally there is camera shake at 1/60, but I often go down to 1/30 or 1/15 to let people blur and keep the seen in focus with good results. In this cases I would take multiple shots and pick the best one.

Today I did an interior photography shoot on SL2 and M11, some with Models and Flash photography.
The wifi connection from the SL2 was frustrating on iPad Pro , slow and I had to reconnect over and over again.

The M11 was a dream to connect with USB-C cable and shoot people int the space, the client was watching the images flash on the iPad Pro quickly in the Fotos app, you preview the images while they are on the SD card in the camera.

I am very exited about the new tether feature option coming up for the M11 with support in Capture one and Lightroom. even more exiting would be when C1P mobile will come up this year for iPad.

The new sensor is better than the M10-R, but not the reason enough to change to M11. I mostly use it at 60mp. as a professional photographer I have many times needed it, but it is not for everybody and the lower res of 36 is perfect for many people. I tend to always improve my quality instead of talking about the need or not of high-res sensors.

I use to shoot film for many years and have scanned lots of it. looking back I wish 35mm film had more resolution. I am thinking to keep up with the times, I don't want to limit myself now to 36mp, future proofing for the next 10 year. The expectation of future generations is probably for more resolution and details.

 

I like that the camera is lighter. I like that high iso has improved, the images look cleaner and retain lots of color even at 12500. I like that startup of wifi is quicker. I like the option of an electronic shutter, even if I probably will not use it often and only in situation where is it good to use. This new tools make the M11 enjoyable , not now the M10-R is staying home.

Very interesting, thanks .  When you used the iPad/Fotos for you shoot, did you connect it with USB-C cable then ? (rather than wifi) ? 

Are you saying you prefer the M11 in almost every respect ?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Thanks for taking the time Peter, there is some great info here . 

Not to stray too far off topic here but In response to your comments about 'pixel shake' ....do you have any regrets (if that's the right word, but probably a little strong !) in upgrading to M10-R ?  ( I am presuming you made that step from M10 but I could be wrong there of course).     The reason I ask is I am thinking to go from M10 to M10-R.  Like you , I feel these 40 ish MP cameras to be quite future-proof and of course the GAS is calling as usual for an M10R BP .

But if 24-36 is indeed a sweet spot I'd be quite interested whether you would advise others to make that step to the R sensor .

Part of my justification is that as a 10-D user I sometimes do have the need for a screen    M10-M is tempting but if I'm going to invest in a body for the use of the screen then it may also aswell shoot colour.

To keep on thread topic, this is all in the context of the fact that I won't be buying an 11 right now (but never say never) as I'm still keen for some of the purer features of the 10 line (removable baseplate, etc) .  But maybe I am just a late adopter .  

I did have the pleasure of handling an 11 recently and the weight reduction and finish was really nice btw. 

 

Hello Graham, regarding whether it would be worth a step-up to a M10-R, that's really a personal decision, I honestly wouldn't like to recommend any equipment purchases to anyone because one's photographic tools are / should be an extension of how you work and what you are trying to work towards........and as I am sure you well know we are all different and come to those decisions from many diverse directions.........I can only say what works for me.

My reason for going for the M10-R was quite simple. I heard of a near new "demo" one for sale at a Leica Store and it was being offered with a full Leica 2 year warranty,  plus the price they were asking for it was hard to ignore, way under list so I traded in my M10-P against it and basically got the "new" R for a couple of grand, ( €'s ) . It was a 'no-brainer". I still have and will keep my M10-D, and a M10-M, and the fact that the three cameras share the same battery and chargers was another factor in the decision process.

The two year full warranty was a big influence for me to trade up from the P to the R, all of my digital M's from the M9 onwards with the exception of the M10-M, ( touching wood ! ), have had to make the trip "home" to Wetzlar for a variety of reasons. The M10-D which I consider to be the best digital Leica M to date has gone "home" no less than 4-5 times, ( I've lost count ), and is still is quirky as hell but a "keeper" despite all of that.

Do I need the higher resolution of the R? No not really.......I have been able to get full A2 size prints and even larger out of the P's and the D's cropped 24mp files, ( I tend to crop everything heavily ), without any problems at all and I still like the look of the M10's 24mp sensors a lot. The R's sensor is good too but it needs a more measured approach I find to avoid the "pixel shake" that has not been apparent to me on the 24mp sensor files.........But it is not a big deal.

I have nothing against the M11 at all, it's only good news that Leica are still aggressively developing the M line of cameras, but for me it offers nothing worth the extra costs that I cannot achieve with my existing M's so I have not considered it..............However if a M11-S like the SL2-S comes down the Pike with a sub 30-40mp sensor then that could well grab my attention.

Edited February 24, 2022 by petermullett

[Photoworks]

2 minutes ago, grahamc said:

Very interesting, thanks .  When you used the iPad/Fotos for you shoot, did you connect it with USB-C cable then ? (rather than wifi) ? 

Are you saying you prefer the M11 in almost every respect ?

M11 was connected with 3m USB-C to USB-C cable and iPad Pro.

SL2 only offers wifi, Maybe they make some magic happening for this camera too in FW

To me the M11 feels like a traditional M camera, there are some bugs here and there that probably will be fixed in the next few months. Yes I like it.
I think what you have to ask yourself is: can I take the same photo with my M10-R, is it necessary to spend the money on a M11. everyone should decide that for themself. I like to much the limit and discover new ways that benefit the final output. I often shoot on TV and movie sets and would love to have a camera that is easy to use and silent . The M10-R does not do that job for me, I have a different kit for that.

[Mr.Prime]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:09 AM, CGarrard said:

 

I just wish Leica would make an M-D  with a real shutter recock mechanism/lever, native ISO 50-12,800 range on a mechanical dial, and focus the design completely on the highest quality haptic and tactile feedback possible. To me that would be one of the purist M experiences possible.

I have been waiting for a camera manufacturer to do this since digital was first coming. A camera that I could pick up and use like it were my M4 but with a classy digital sensor. My wallet would open so fast you’d hear the sonic boom…

[IkarusJohn]

7 hours ago, Mr.Prime said:

I have been waiting for a camera manufacturer to do this since digital was first coming. A camera that I could pick up and use like it were my M4 but with a classy digital sensor. My wallet would open so fast you’d hear the sonic boom…

Well, in their own ways, the M Edition 60, the M-D and the M10-D were like that.  I have no experience of the M-D, but I had and have the other two - set the M10-D up the way you want it with the Fotos App (if you can get it to connect), then never touch it again and never attach the EVF, and you have a camera similar to the M60, with the M10-P shutter, buffer and processor.  The only difference is the M60 has a body designed by Audi, whereas the M10-D has a front button and thumb wheel which are superfluous if you don’t use the EVF.

I made the mistake of selling my M60, and my M10-D isn’t for sale 😀

Edited February 27, 2022 by IkarusJohn

[grahamc]

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On 2/24/2022 at 11:07 AM, petermullett said:

Hello Graham, regarding whether it would be worth a step-up to a M10-R, that's really a personal decision, I honestly wouldn't like to recommend any equipment purchases to anyone because one's photographic tools are / should be an extension of how you work and what you are trying to work towards........and as I am sure you well know we are all different and come to those decisions from many diverse directions.........I can only say what works for me.

My reason for going for the M10-R was quite simple. I heard of a near new "demo" one for sale at a Leica Store and it was being offered with a full Leica 2 year warranty,  plus the price they were asking for it was hard to ignore, way under list so I traded in my M10-P against it and basically got the "new" R for a couple of grand, ( €'s ) . It was a 'no-brainer". I still have and will keep my M10-D, and a M10-M, and the fact that the three cameras share the same battery and chargers was another factor in the decision process.

The two year full warranty was a big influence for me to trade up from the P to the R, all of my digital M's from the M9 onwards with the exception of the M10-M, ( touching wood ! ), have had to make the trip "home" to Wetzlar for a variety of reasons. The M10-D which I consider to be the best digital Leica M to date has gone "home" no less than 4-5 times, ( I've lost count ), and is still is quirky as hell but a "keeper" despite all of that.

Do I need the higher resolution of the R? No not really.......I have been able to get full A2 size prints and even larger out of the P's and the D's cropped 24mp files, ( I tend to crop everything heavily ), without any problems at all and I still like the look of the M10's 24mp sensors a lot. The R's sensor is good too but it needs a more measured approach I find to avoid the "pixel shake" that has not been apparent to me on the 24mp sensor files.........But it is not a big deal.

I have nothing against the M11 at all, it's only good news that Leica are still aggressively developing the M line of cameras, but for me it offers nothing worth the extra costs that I cannot achieve with my existing M's so I have not considered it..............However if a M11-S like the SL2-S comes down the Pike with a sub 30-40mp sensor then that could well grab my attention.

Thanks Peter. 
 

I think I’ve been lucky with my D because it’s been faultless, and serves as my only digital M.  

I think I’m going to keep fending off the GAS and keep it that way.  The only time I feel like I need a a screen is when using off camera flash and I’ll just use Fotos interface with an iPad for that for now.  
 

if the 10-D ever fails me and needs extended time away it would be the more appropriate time for me to invest in another digital M
 

Appreciate the feedback particularly about the comparisons. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, grahamc said:

Appreciate the feedback particularly about the comparisons. 

You're welcome Graham, happy to try to help.........Though I do have to say that I am not one who is voicing against the M11.........I am thankful that Leica are continuing to develop the system, it's just that for me it isn't a move that I deem to be necessary at this time. The new M offers me very little over what I have, plus for me there are some backward steps, and then of course there's the expense of moving up.

Edited February 27, 2022 by petermullett

[bernstein1234]

I'm the OP of this post. I've still not gotten a M11, and have no plans to get one soon.

Instead, i put the money into getting a used 50 APO silver which I always liked a lot. I feel that investing in lens is also better in value.

[grahamc]

18 hours ago, petermullett said:

You're welcome Graham, happy to try to help.........Though I do have to say that I am not one who is voicing against the M11.........I am thankful that Leica are continuing to develop the system, it's just that for me it isn't a move that I deem to be necessary at this time. The new M offers me very little over what I have, plus for me there are some backward steps, and then of course there's the expense of moving up.

Thanks Peter and +1 to your sentiment - I am not against the system development either and never say never to purchasing one 

[raizans]

The way things are moving, both in camera technology, Leica's mission, and my eyesight, I'll most likely pass on the M11 and buy an EVF-M instead.

[SrMi]

2 minutes ago, raizans said:

The way things are moving, both in camera technology, Leica's mission, and my eyesight, I'll most likely pass on the M11 and buy an EVF-M instead.

The M11 with Visoflex 2 may be even better than an uncertain EVF-M (larger, tiltable EVF).

Edited March 2, 2022 by SrMi

[raizans]

My camera bag is a No Hump Zone.

[Kwesi]

Just saw the list at Red Dot Forum and it seems film M’s are affected but not digital M’s. 

[Lax Jought]

I'm still very happy with my M10 and M240.  Even my M9-P's sensor hasn't even corroded. 

[idusidusi]

On 2/27/2022 at 5:42 PM, bernstein1234 said:

I'm the OP of this post. I've still not gotten a M11, and have no plans to get one soon.

Instead, i put the money into getting a used 50 APO silver which I always liked a lot. I feel that investing in lens is also better in value.

Certainly if one becomes unhappy with the MP of one's camera, or don't want film anymore, lenses will last many changes in camera!

[Chaemono]

Am 2.3.2022 um 22:58 schrieb SrMi:

The M11 with Visoflex 2 may be even better than an uncertain EVF-M (larger, tiltable EVF).

Tiltable EVF with the level gauge of the M10-P makes for perfect framing at times, I find. 

[Kay P]

Last week I was able to have an M11 in my hands in Leica Store Milano in Italy. Had a nice 50mm Summicron apo on the body.
The camera works very nice and smooth, however I wanted to see especifically the famous shutter and mettering new system. 
For me the noise is not a problem at all in any situation, speed, LV or classic mode, its quiet and with ambient noise it is not even audible when shooting. The thing is the feeling in the hand, open-closed-take-open. Its ridiculous. Really I am not being fussy, it is just weird. 
My camera now is a faithful M240 Ive been waiting dor this M11 a few years. I think maybe keep the 240 and waiting for a new solution. In the way of shooting an M11 the M system is not inspiring anymore in my opinion.

[cboy]

Takeaways

- Recommends 1/4x Focal length. One needs to have good technique for the M11.Thankfully all forum members have excellent technique 😉

- higher MP magnifies micro jitters (user error) /older lens defects (lens quality) when printing at a larger effective printable size (24x36? Nick was referring to a comfortable quality sized print) as a result, compared to the printable limit of the M10/240. So at say a lower 16x20 print size one will see no noticible difference compared to a M10. 

Balanced view by Nick IMO

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Hallo,

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[Kwesi]

I agree - very balanced.

I love how he walks over to demonstrate the size of a native M11 print at 60mp.