Leica M11 Sensor review

[Stevejack]

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2 hours ago, pgh said:

Anyways, the sony colors...the words I use are plasticky and gummy. Not precise but again why I prefer the Leica when the lighting isn't gonna demand better. 

Did you ever try to profile your cameras to make them match?  I know out of the box there are differences, but once profiled there really shouldn't be unless you made a mistake somewhere. 

I'm saying this as someone who went through the process of profiling all my cameras but never really use any of those profiles (it doesn't matter much to my workflow). For a pro shooter I can imagine that they wouldn't be able to operate efficiently unless all their cameras were matched up to a calibrated standard to give them a baseline for batch editing.

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[HansiMustermann]

What can a normal (hobby) user say about the sensor of the M 11? Well, not much, because I don't really understand the technology behind it. But today I found an example in my photos taken with the M 11 and full resolution that I found quite meaningful, at least for me. Picture 1 shows the unprocessed import version in LR (starting point L-DNG). Picture 2, what is hidden in the lights of the photo. 3 and 4 are strong crops from the processed image. The ship that appears on the horizon I had not even seen with the naked eye. Yes, no one needs that for practical purposes in this case, but I like the fact that the sensor still finds details in all the haze. (Shot with M 11 and Voigtlaender Nokton 1.5/75). 

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Edited January 27, 2022 by HansiMustermann

[Adam Bonn]

8 hours ago, SrMi said:

Underexposing using only ISO does not lose much DR (e.g., Auto-ISO, hitting minimum shutter speed).  I feel comfortable lowering the ISO one or two stops to protect highlights after maximizing the exposure.

Yeah that would work, if the suggested exp is like 3200 @ 1/125, then 1600 and 1/125 just means a stop of digital amplification in post, which is what the camera is doing anyway, plus in camera it might be a global brightening (or some sort of tone mapping over which you have no control), whereas in post you can be more selective.

[cboy]

If the Op wants sensor readout data to compare for themselves...

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/21/leica-m11-camera-sensor-measurements-now-available-at-photonstophotos.aspx/

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/26/is-the-new-leica-m11-camera-using-a-sony-sensor-a7r-iv.aspx/

Imo the fpL, M11 & A7rIV have similar output.

But they each have distinct colour science.

Back in the film era the equivalent 'filmic' sensors where Kodak/Fuji/Ilford etc. Today Leica just adds its own topping since Leica was never a sensor foundary to begin with.

One should not covet that the sensor in the  m11 has the better sensor compared to the equivalent sensors found in Sony and Sigma (some here believe it's the case). They're just different.

[Adam Bonn]

plus the underlying coding and such that goes with a sensor, how the signal is processed etc, what the camera OEM choses to bake in, leave out, how they chose to amplify the base signal for their ISO needs, what they've done with the filter stack, micro lenses, bayer colours etc

It's a bit like an off the shelf engine really, depending on the application you design the drive train (gearbox) around the usage.

You might have the same Honda 50cc engine in both a lawn mower and a moped, but they'll behave very differently.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, cboy said:

If the Op wants sensor readout data to compare for themselves...

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/21/leica-m11-camera-sensor-measurements-now-available-at-photonstophotos.aspx/

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/26/is-the-new-leica-m11-camera-using-a-sony-sensor-a7r-iv.aspx/

Imo the fpL, M11 & A7rIV have similar output.

But they each have distinct colour science.

Back in the film era the equivalent 'filmic' sensors where Kodak/Fuji/Ilford etc. Today Leica just adds its own topping since Leica was never a sensor foundary to begin with.

One should not covet that the sensor in the  m11 has the better sensor compared to the equivalent sensors found in Sony and Sigma (some here believe it's the case). They're just different.

Sensor readout? Did they take the camera to pieces?  The raw output of a camera is processed by the firmware, not a straight sensor dump. 

[SrMi]

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3 hours ago, cboy said:

If the Op wants sensor readout data to compare for themselves...

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/21/leica-m11-camera-sensor-measurements-now-available-at-photonstophotos.aspx/

https://leicarumors.com/2022/01/26/is-the-new-leica-m11-camera-using-a-sony-sensor-a7r-iv.aspx/

Imo the fpL, M11 & A7rIV have similar output.

But they each have distinct colour science.

Back in the film era the equivalent 'filmic' sensors where Kodak/Fuji/Ilford etc. Today Leica just adds its own topping since Leica was never a sensor foundary to begin with.

One should not covet that the sensor in the  m11 has the better sensor compared to the equivalent sensors found in Sony and Sigma (some here believe it's the case). They're just different.

PDR describes only one aspect of the sensors. Same PDR does not mean that the sensors are similar. Apart from the color, as you mentioned, other elements determine the "sensor quality" in practice. They can be discovered by using the camera. PhotonsToPhotos also has Sensor Heatmaps data. According to Bill Claff:

In extreme situations, Fixed Pattern Noise (FPN) will affect how pleasing the results are visually. You can get a sense of that on the Sensor Heatmaps page.
For the row and column metrics lower is better. Also, check the link for a visual representation.

 

[frederico]

17 hours ago, Adam Bonn said:

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

One of these is the M10 with the bog standard adobe standard profile. The other is a virtual copy of the same image. The only difference? Well I took the bog standard M11 adobe standard profile, copied everything south of the forward matrices, ditched the LUT and pasted it into the M10 profile then applied it to the M10 image. 😇

Hi Adam,

Could you share how you accomplish this? Would you mind sharing the steps on how used the M11 profile data and applied to a M10 image?

Edited January 27, 2022 by frederico

[pgh]

13 hours ago, Stevejack said:

Did you ever try to profile your cameras to make them match?  I know out of the box there are differences, but once profiled there really shouldn't be unless you made a mistake somewhere. 

I'm saying this as someone who went through the process of profiling all my cameras but never really use any of those profiles (it doesn't matter much to my workflow). For a pro shooter I can imagine that they wouldn't be able to operate efficiently unless all their cameras were matched up to a calibrated standard to give them a baseline for batch editing.

Yes I've got all my cams profiled. I'm not a scientist - I'm a process oriented maker and I do things by fussing around mostly til they feel right. I can get them close but of course something that gets you out of bed to make more pics is that it's never perfect. The Sony files just take more work and more fussing. I can't say what it is but for my endpoints the Leica files are just more fuss free to get where I want, even though I never use out of box colors and even though I tweak almost all files even after imported w standard profile. The way I shoot now thankfully isn't super high volume anymore, I spend more time with less pictures - but if I were still doing more assignment work I'd go mad with this combo - in fact the few times I have done that I have gone mad and now use only Sony because it's more versatile even though I'd prefer not to. That said I'm swapping it for an SL2 so maybe it will be a little easier now with everything under the same roof, though I know every Leica cam is still different. 

[Adam Bonn]

1 hour ago, frederico said:

Hi Adam,

Could you share how you accomplish this? Would you mind sharing the steps on how used the M11 profile data and applied to a M10 image?

Just what I said in the post really,

I  took the bog standard M11 adobe standard profile, copied everything south of the forward matrices, ditched the LUT and pasted it into the M10 profile then applied it to the M10 image.

In order to do this you'll need to convert the dcp file into something readable, namely .json (using dcamprof) or xml (using dcptool)

Of the 2 json is a LOT easier on the eye (it's my go too for this really), but xml is more tolerant of little syntax errors (miss a comma out of a json file and it simply refuses to render back into a dcp)

It's best to read the adobe dng spec to see what all the bits do... but in a nutshell, the first 2 parts (colormatrix and forward matrix) are really camera specific

The next part, the Hue Sat Deltas is a little bit like the HSL tool in your fav RAW app, and it's this bit I swapped across.

The LUT (which comes at the end) I just ditched because there's no easy way I know to rewrite it!

I just did this to show that a big part of the colours we see is in the raw app... in reality swapping HSD tables between dcp files tends to fix problems you didn't have and make new ones that you can't fix. For example the M11-10 hack isn't kind to blues and purples (red is more vibrant though)

It's a lot easier to adjust images using the tools in the RAW app and save them as a preset and I feel profiling is best done using ones own camera and starting from scratch, not hammering a different camera's profile into your own.

But yeah, if you're inclined to play with these things, copy and pasting various parts of DCP files around is a good way to waste an afternoon and get a kinda Frankenstein sense of what the various bits of a DCP do!

[frederico]

16 minutes ago, Adam Bonn said:

Just what I said in the post really,

I  took the bog standard M11 adobe standard profile, copied everything south of the forward matrices, ditched the LUT and pasted it into the M10 profile then applied it to the M10 image.

In order to do this you'll need to convert the dcp file into something readable, namely .json (using dcamprof) or xml (using dcptool)

Of the 2 json is a LOT easier on the eye (it's my go too for this really), but xml is more tolerant of little syntax errors (miss a comma out of a json file and it simply refuses to render back into a dcp)

It's best to read the adobe dng spec to see what all the bits do... but in a nutshell, the first 2 parts (colormatrix and forward matrix) are really camera specific

The next part, the Hue Sat Deltas is a little bit like the HSL tool in your fav RAW app, and it's this bit I swapped across.

The LUT (which comes at the end) I just ditched because there's no easy way I know to rewrite it!

I just did this to show that a big part of the colours we see is in the raw app... in reality swapping HSD tables between dcp files tends to fix problems you didn't have and make new ones that you can't fix. For example the M11-10 hack isn't kind to blues and purples (red is more vibrant though)

It's a lot easier to adjust images using the tools in the RAW app and save them as a preset and I feel profiling is best done using ones own camera and starting from scratch, not hammering a different camera's profile into your own.

But yeah, if you're inclined to play with these things, copy and pasting various parts of DCP files around is a good way to waste an afternoon and get a kinda Frankenstein sense of what the various bits of a DCP do!

Thank you! I know how to convert dcp to xml and edit things but my problem is that I can't find the original M11 profile! I can edit a M11 image using it but I can't find it on my system. (mac). I thought it would be under:

/Adobe Lightroom Classic.app >> Contents >> Resouces >> CameraProfiles

But I can't locate it.

[SrMi]

15 minutes ago, frederico said:

Thank you! I know how to convert dcp to xml and edit things but my problem is that I can't find the original M11 profile! I can edit a M11 image using it but I can't find it on my system. (mac). I thought it would be under:

/Adobe Lightroom Classic.app >> Contents >> Resouces >> CameraProfiles

But I can't locate it.

I got it from Adam earlier (on Mac):

mac hd/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Adobe Standard

[Adam Bonn]

23 minutes ago, frederico said:

Thank you! I know how to convert dcp to xml and edit things but my problem is that I can't find the original M11 profile! I can edit a M11 image using it but I can't find it on my system. (mac). I thought it would be under:

/Adobe Lightroom Classic.app >> Contents >> Resouces >> CameraProfiles

But I can't locate it.

If you ever get stuck to find a dcp profile, it's easier to open the dng in adobe dng profile editor (which still manages to work on the latest Mac) then export the dcp straight from there, if there's a native dcp profile in the file (and there almost certainly will be if it's a native dng) then you can export that too

Not so relevant in these halcyon days of CC subscription, but if you have a file not supported in your older version of ACR then you can use adobe dng convertor to make a dng of the RAW (even if it's already a DNG), then use adobe dng profile editor to lift the dcp out.

I used this to get support for a bunch of cameras who's RAW I wanted to play with  (but I had no intention of buying) back in my LR6 days (which only ended about 2 weeks ago!)

 

[frederico]

1 hour ago, SrMi said:

I got it from Adam earlier (on Mac):

mac hd/Library/Application Support/Adobe/CameraRaw/CameraProfiles/Adobe Standard

It was not there either. I have the latest version too. Weird

[frederico]

1 hour ago, Adam Bonn said:

If you ever get stuck to find a dcp profile, it's easier to open the dng in adobe dng profile editor (which still manages to work on the latest Mac) then export the dcp straight from there, if there's a native dcp profile in the file (and there almost certainly will be if it's a native dng) then you can export that too

Not so relevant in these halcyon days of CC subscription, but if you have a file not supported in your older version of ACR then you can use adobe dng convertor to make a dng of the RAW (even if it's already a DNG), then use adobe dng profile editor to lift the dcp out.

I used this to get support for a bunch of cameras who's RAW I wanted to play with  (but I had no intention of buying) back in my LR6 days (which only ended about 2 weeks ago!)

 

This worked! Thank you!

[Adam Bonn]

10 minutes ago, frederico said:

It was not there either. I have the latest version too. Weird

Yeah I can't find it either there, yet my LR shows it as an option... I dunno I've been on mac for like 10 days after 25yrs on windows... still feeling my way around the file system

It's weird because all the other DCPs are there!

 

10 minutes ago, frederico said:

This worked! Thank you!

My pleasure. Happy playing, btw json is so much easier to read than xml 

[pijat]

has averyone forgotten about the media the rays has to pass through (read: lens) before hitting the sensor?

the 3D pop is the result of the combination of the lens and sensor. we are not  comparing kodak vs fuji when using different camera systems.

[SiOnara]

On 1/14/2022 at 2:47 AM, zone5 said:

There are so many M11 Reviews available now. I have been busy reading all these reviews.

However, there  is no review that reviews sensor deeper than just spec and sating it is very good at low light.

When we had M10 first time there are so many detail reviews about sensor technology including how the sensor design optimized for M lens by thin  thickness of glass, micro-prism design ....

Color rendering, comparing with M240 and M9 CCD sensor etc.

Now M11 reviews are mainly about spec, minor design change, buttons ..... I know these are important but some very important information is missing.

It is like car reviews about exterior interior design and headlight shape , information system but without detail about engine and transmission technology and driving performance and ride.... 

I am using Leica M10P , M10 mono and SL with Leica glasses and I am interested in this new M11 and want to learn about this camera especially about sensor technology besides just specs,

I am wondering wether this is Sony sensor variant or not (this is matter to me since I used multiple sony system before and I do not like sony sensor rendering personally), I want to know how different this M11 sensor to compare with M10 and M10 R....

Please let me know if there is any review that will explain all of these questions about M11 sensor.

Please forgive me if I say something wrong but my biggest  fear for Leica's future products as Leica Enthusiast is adapting Sony sensor for all of future cameras.

I do not have any way to prove this but Sony sensor  have their own look and even though they produce detail and sharp images  I do not like that look.

Again, I do not want to offend anybody with this statement but that is jus my personal view.

 

H Jung

 

I almost think that nowadays the sensor maker is not really that important. Modern sensors are so good technically. As long as they produce an accurate picture with good dynamic range and resolution then post work can finish the final look and feel the photographer wants. Obviously Leica can tweak sensors between their camera range so there’s consistency. 
 

It’s a bit like an M6 or other such film Leica. They always had the ‘Leica look’ whether you shot on Kodak or FijiFilm or Ilford.  
 

The most important bit of the camera really is the lens.

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Hallo,

Look here: Interesting Leica gear

[LBJ2]

On 1/26/2022 at 10:15 AM, LBJ2 said:

FWIW

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

The Leica M11 is a full-frame digital rangefinder camera from Leica Camera AG.[1][2][3][4][5] It was introduced on 13 January 2022.[6] It uses a 60-megapixel Sony image sensor, and is compatible with almost all Leica M mount lenses.[7]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M11

Slightly interesting for some of us and "who cares" for others.

I just noticed today, Wikipedia, changed "It uses a 60-megapixel Sony image sensor,"  to  "It uses a 60.3-megapixel image sensor," deleting the reference to Sony.  😉

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leica_M11

 Someone posted on the Leica M11: Revision history:

19:21, 21 February 2022‎ 173.68.74.6 talk‎  5,385 bytes −3‎  " It’s 60.3mp sensor and it’s not from Sony, I email Leica and they confirmed that."

Edited May 3, 2022 by LBJ2

[KeyofG]

On 1/14/2022 at 9:47 AM, zone5 said:

I am wondering wether this is Sony sensor

It is. I wish you could take an M11 out and an A7RIV and shoot them both with the same lens. Apart from small differences the results are basically identical. Any difference people “see” is total bias.