Leica would like to make a CL2 But..

[FrozenInTime]

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10 hours ago, nicci78 said:

GR IIIx is the same camera as GR III with another lens. 
Same 24MP sensor. 
 

I guess that if Leica release CL2 it will have a new sensor at least. Otherwise why bother. 

Agree - the body can wait.

All that is needed for proof of life is a new TL lens.

[elgenper]

11 hours ago, ramarren said:

Given the excellent noise characteristic, dynamic range, and resolution of the CL as it already is, it doesn't seem to need a "sensor improvement" at all. The only reason I can imagine for people wanting a CL2 model is to get "more stuff" into the camera ... like ibis and such ... most of which is, to me, utterly irrelevant and unnecessary convenience stuff. 

G

Agreed...  The one and only thing that keeps me from getting a CL is that infernal moving focus point!  This is an absolute deal breaker for me (bought a Panasonic model with the same flaw some years ago, and had to sell it after a few months).  Wildly hoping for either a FW update for the CL (seems unlikely), or a CL2 with this fixed (not very likely either; they seem to be totally stubborn on this, and just will NOT move their point....🤪).

Edited December 26, 2021 by elgenper

[Simone_DF]

11 hours ago, SoCalLeicanator said:

I think it's the same 24 MP sensor that they used in the GRIII.  Maybe they don't see the point in upgrading the rest without an upgraded sensor?

Good point, I didn't think of that!

[ramarren]

6 hours ago, elgenper said:

Agreed...  The one and only thing that keeps me from getting a CL is that infernal moving focus point!  This is an absolute deal breaker for me (bought a Panasonic model with the same flaw some years ago, and had to sell it after a few months).  Wildly hoping for either a FW update for the CL (seems unlikely), or a CL2 with this fixed (not very likely either; they seem to be totally stubborn on this, and just will NOT move their point....🤪).

Since I don't use any TL or SL lenses (all R and M mount lenses only), I've never seen this 'moving focus point' issue; the focus point only affects what magnifies when I use focus magnification assist. 

That said, I'm curious as to what this problem is and how you would fix it if it could be fixed.

• It seems to me that if you have the touch control feature of the LCD enabled, and focus point setting by touch control is part of that, it might prove very difficult to determine when some random touch on the screen is intentional or not. 
• I do use the AF on my Hasselblad 907x and Light L16. Both have focus point setting by touch. Sometimes I touch the screen inadvertently and throw the focus point off ... It only take a moment to tap the screen back in the center (L16), or press the second button below the LCD (907x) to re-center the focus point.

I'm not sure why this is so great an annoyance.

G

[Le Chef]

It’s an annoyance because it’s not connected to touch-screen control being enabled, but to the 4-way controller. When you nudge one of the controllers by accident it moves the focus box. This problem also affects the Q and Q2 and possibly the SL/SL2. Why Leica seem incapable of being customer-centric and being responsive to this complaint and then incapable of fixing this problem is beyond me. They should be able to have the firmware default to prevent the focus box moving when you nudge a controller. If Apple behaved this way they would lose $millions in stock value, but clearly Leica doesn’t have to care about customers or shareholder value.

Edited December 26, 2021 by Le Chef

[elgenper]

2 hours ago, ramarren said:

• ..... Sometimes I touch the screen inadvertently and throw the focus point off ... It only take a moment to tap the screen back in the center (L16), or press the second button below the LCD (907x) to re-center the focus point.

I'm not sure why this is so great an annoyance.

G

Well, I´ve used Leicas for several decades: IIIg, M2, M9 and MM.  All have had their focus area fixed in the middle: just focus, recompose and shoot!  No fuss, no ambiguity, no time lost in trying to even FIND that pesky focus area, or to find "the second button below..." to recenter.  This has been the way to use Leicas since old Oscar invented the coupled rangefinder, then WHY cannot Leica at least make it an option to keep using their cameras that way???  Just one more item in the already short menu to set and forget!

It IS so great an annoyance that I, for one, simply will not buy and use a camera that doesn´t allow me to work the way I want!

 

[gotium]

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2 hours ago, ramarren said:

Since I don't use any TL or SL lenses (all R and M mount lenses only), I've never seen this 'moving focus point' issue; the focus point only affects what magnifies when I use focus magnification assist. 

That said, I'm curious as to what this problem is and how you would fix it if it could be fixed.

• It seems to me that if you have the touch control feature of the LCD enabled, and focus point setting by touch control is part of that, it might prove very difficult to determine when some random touch on the screen is intentional or not. 
• I do use the AF on my Hasselblad 907x and Light L16. Both have focus point setting by touch. Sometimes I touch the screen inadvertently and throw the focus point off ... It only take a moment to tap the screen back in the center (L16), or press the second button below the LCD (907x) to re-center the focus point.

I'm not sure why this is so great an annoyance.

G

I find this wandering focus point hugely annoying, because it’s both unpredictable and hard to notice – I only figure it out after a few minutes of swearing about why I can’t get the $*#* thing to focus, and by then the moment is gone.

Edited December 26, 2021 by gotium

[ramarren]

By these comments, you guys are reinforcing to me that I really do enjoy being an old curmudgeon and only rarely bother with autofocus systems.  AF adds a level of complexity that I find utterly unnecessary to my photographic efforts, even though it is supposed to be a convenience that saves effort... 

Rangefinder-manual focus Leicas can't move the rangefinder patch because it is a fixed part of the opto-mechanical viewfinder mechanism ... EVF/LCD equipped autofocus Leicas simply define a piece of the incoming to use for focusing, and the definition is a 'soft' setting. So they behave differently. Most that I talk to tell me the latter is more flexible, and it possibly is, but I have no problems focusing manually or even just setting a distance by scale, and thus don't worry about wandering focus points.. 

Sorry to hear it presents such an irritating issue..! 

G

[Le Chef]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

By these comments, you guys are reinforcing to me that I really do enjoy being an old curmudgeon and only rarely bother with autofocus systems.  AF adds a level of complexity that I find utterly unnecessary to my photographic efforts, even though it is supposed to be a convenience that saves effort... 

Rangefinder-manual focus Leicas can't move the rangefinder patch because it is a fixed part of the opto-mechanical viewfinder mechanism ... EVF/LCD equipped autofocus Leicas simply define a piece of the incoming to use for focusing, and the definition is a 'soft' setting. So they behave differently. Most that I talk to tell me the latter is more flexible, and it possibly is, but I have no problems focusing manually or even just setting a distance by scale, and thus don't worry about wandering focus points.. 

Sorry to hear it presents such an irritating issue..! 

G

It’s a 21st Century problem.

[SrMi]

17 hours ago, elgenper said:

Agreed...  The one and only thing that keeps me from getting a CL is that infernal moving focus point!  This is an absolute deal breaker for me (bought a Panasonic model with the same flaw some years ago, and had to sell it after a few months).  Wildly hoping for either a FW update for the CL (seems unlikely), or a CL2 with this fixed (not very likely either; they seem to be totally stubborn on this, and just will NOT move their point....🤪).

I run all my Leica cameras in EVF Extended Mode, which means I can move the focus point only with the directional pad. Unlike my Sony cameras, I have yet to press the directional pad accidentally. No issue for me.
I also turn off Touch AF on the rear LCD. This way, the focus point does not move when touching the screen accidentally.

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, ramarren said:

By these comments, you guys are reinforcing to me that I really do enjoy being an old curmudgeon and only rarely bother with autofocus systems.  AF adds a level of complexity that I find utterly unnecessary to my photographic efforts, even though it is supposed to be a convenience that saves effort... 

Rangefinder-manual focus Leicas can't move the rangefinder patch because it is a fixed part of the opto-mechanical viewfinder mechanism ... EVF/LCD equipped autofocus Leicas simply define a piece of the incoming to use for focusing, and the definition is a 'soft' setting. So they behave differently. Most that I talk to tell me the latter is more flexible, and it possibly is, but I have no problems focusing manually or even just setting a distance by scale, and thus don't worry about wandering focus points.. 

Sorry to hear it presents such an irritating issue..! 

G

There is a long-lived thread in the M10 subforum where people complain that you can not turn off the touchscreen on M10-P. No camera is safe :).

[ramarren]

3 hours ago, SrMi said:

There is a long-lived thread in the M10 subforum where people complain that you can not turn off the touchscreen on M10-P. No camera is safe :).

I'm pretty sure my 1954 Kodak Retina IIc, 1974 Polaroid SX-70, and 1978 Leica M4-2 are quite safe from this affliction. I'm also sure my Leica M-D 262 would be quite safe as well...  

G

[elgenper]

12 hours ago, ramarren said:

By these comments, you guys are reinforcing to me that I really do enjoy being an old curmudgeon......

Rangefinder-manual focus Leicas can't move the rangefinder patch because it is a fixed part of the opto-mechanical viewfinder mechanism ... EVF/LCD equipped autofocus Leicas simply define a piece of the incoming to use for focusing, and the definition is a 'soft' setting. So they behave differently......

Sorry to hear it presents such an irritating issue..! 

G

Well, I´m certainly not arguing with you, since I share your opinions at least 90%.  So, either we´re both old curmudgeons, or none of us.... 😋. And the images you present here show that you know well what you´re doing, if I may say so.

The technical background that prevents the RF patch to move is well known by me; my point is that this is what we´ve used for decades, and the (probably very welcome to many) new ability to move it in an EVF camera should not make Leica, of all brands, REMOVE all possibility to keep working the old, tried and proven way!  It´s just contrary to their ethos.

I´m certainly not arguing that fixed-field focussing should be mandatory for all, only one little menu entry to tell OUR bought-and-paid-for Leica camera that this will be our personal way of working with it, so please comply!  I don´t think it is too muck to ask for, really.

Like you, I´d use a CL with my M lenses much of the time, but I want just one good AF lens for occasions where it would help me.  Only, just these occasions would also call for the ability to instantly find the focus patch just where I left it.  Every time, and without having to do something extra to re-center it.

Edited December 27, 2021 by elgenper

[ramarren]

5 hours ago, elgenper said:

Well, I´m certainly not arguing with you, since I share your opinions at least 90%.  So, either we´re both old curmudgeons, or none of us.... 😋. And the images you present here show that you know well what you´re doing, if I may say so.

The technical background that prevents the RF patch to move is well known by me; my point is that this is what we´ve used for decades, and the (probably very welcome to many) new ability to move it in an EVF camera should not make Leica, of all brands, REMOVE all possibility to keep working the old, tried and proven way!  It´s just contrary to their ethos.

I´m certainly not arguing that fixed-field focussing should be mandatory for all, only one little menu entry to tell OUR bought-and-paid-for Leica camera that this will be our personal way of working with it, so please comply!  I don´t think it is too muck to ask for, really.

Like you, I´d use a CL with my M lenses much of the time, but I want just one good AF lens for occasions where it would help me.  Only, just these occasions would also call for the ability to instantly find the focus patch just where I left it.  Every time, and without having to do something extra to re-center it.

On reflection, I do have a question about the problem. Someone up-thread said it wasn't accidental touching of the LCD that cause the problem, but accidentally pressing the buttons on the four way controller. Is this true?

If so, hmmm: I never touch anything on the four-way controller inadvertently. The four-way controller is part of the camera controls and, like any other camera with functional buttons, I train my hands never to touch a button unless I intend to. What that implies to me, as I think about it, is that the small CL body might be a little cramped for some people's hands such that they find it hard NOT to accidentally press one of these buttons. I found the CL's body a bit short and lacking in space for a good grip, which is why I bought a half-case for mine which makes it a quarter of an inch taller and a little thicker: I can hold it more easily and there's a little bit more room for my fingers so I don't accidentally press any buttons. There's no such case for my Panasonic GX9 and it's even smaller, with more buttons, and cramped ... that's one of the reasons I don't use it much, it's an uncomfortable camera to use since it's hard to keep from accidentally touching controls all the time with my big hands and fingers. 

Something to think about. 

G

[SrMi]

6 hours ago, elgenper said:

Well, I´m certainly not arguing with you, since I share your opinions at least 90%.  So, either we´re both old curmudgeons, or none of us.... 😋. And the images you present here show that you know well what you´re doing, if I may say so.

The technical background that prevents the RF patch to move is well known by me; my point is that this is what we´ve used for decades, and the (probably very welcome to many) new ability to move it in an EVF camera should not make Leica, of all brands, REMOVE all possibility to keep working the old, tried and proven way!  It´s just contrary to their ethos.

I´m certainly not arguing that fixed-field focussing should be mandatory for all, only one little menu entry to tell OUR bought-and-paid-for Leica camera that this will be our personal way of working with it, so please comply!  I don´t think it is too muck to ask for, really.

Like you, I´d use a CL with my M lenses much of the time, but I want just one good AF lens for occasions where it would help me.  Only, just these occasions would also call for the ability to instantly find the focus patch just where I left it.  Every time, and without having to do something extra to re-center it.

Leica's ethos is to avoid adding features that they deem unnecessary. Leica makes those decisions by consulting its users (e.g., removal of DOF preview in SL2). I had issue of accidentally moving focus point on other cameras, but never on CL. Moving focus point via touch screen can be easily disabled. Moving focus point via directional pads does not seem likely to me.

[Le Chef]

11 minutes ago, SrMi said:

Leica's ethos is to avoid adding features that they deem unnecessary. Leica makes those decisions by consulting its users (e.g., removal of DOF preview in SL2). I had issue of accidentally moving focus point on other cameras, but never on CL. Moving focus point via touch screen can be easily disabled. Moving focus point via directional pads does not seem likely to me.

I would disagree strongly that the 4-way controller does not move the focus square. I constantly have to check and adjust as the camera bounces against my chest as I’m walking. It does this with both my CL and Q2. I know for sure that I’m not the only one with this problem as it crops up on multiple forums on at least two sites.

[SrMi]

4 minutes ago, Le Chef said:

I would disagree strongly that the 4-way controller does not move the focus square. I constantly have to check and adjust as the camera bounces against my chest as I’m walking. It does this with both my CL and Q2. I know for sure that I’m not the only one with this problem as it crops up on multiple forums on at least two sites.

I believe that you and others are experiencing that problem. However, I wonder why I, and likely most CL users, do not have that issue.

[LocalHero1953]

I don't have the problem, but I don't use a neck strap, just a wrist strap and a camera bag. And I'm a right eye shooter, so my nose is not the culprit.

[Le Chef]

13 minutes ago, SrMi said:

I believe that you and others are experiencing that problem. However, I wonder why I, and likely most CL users, do not have that issue.

If you have statistical data to support “most” let’s see it.

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Hallo,

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[IkarusJohn]

I’ve often wondered what this “wandering focal point” is about.  Thank you for the explanation.

One of the biggest flaws (for me) in the M system is the fixed focusing patch; it inevitably means that subjects tend to be in the centre of the frame.  Yes, you can focus and recompose, but having such a precise focusing system, then moving away from that precision to recompose is not something I have ever really liked - yes, you can move your head back, but this seems clumsy to me.

My first AF camera was an F5, with the fabulous 14-24 zoom lens.  That had a movable focus point, but I don’t recall how it worked.  I also had an X1D II, and have the M10-D, TL2 and SL - all with movable focal points, and have never had this problem.  It seems particularly annoying on the CL.  As I understand it, the problem arises if you have the camera turned on, and hanging around your neck bouncing on your chest?  Surely, there’s a work around for that?  It’s a small and light camera, why don’t you hang it over your shoulder, with the lens facing into your body, or just turn the camera off?

I don’t say this to minimise your irritation, but I can’t see Leica or any other manufacturer moving away from the movable focal point, nor do I see them fixing the point in the centre of the frame, even as an option.  

Edited December 27, 2021 by IkarusJohn