Leica SL 21,.. plz

[BernardC]

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14 hours ago, Donald M said:

My frustration is that with every new camera, Leica tends to forget their customers of the older cameras. No new software updates anymore.

I think all of the bugs have been resolved by now. Is there any feature you think should be added to the SL's firmware?

 

5 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

But they do! 

Exactly. People can over-react when Leica has a promotion, but they always have active promotions. Just like any other brand.

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[beewee]

This is an interesting perspective of bringing a new lens to market. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2022/02/why-manufacturers-make-a-specific-camera-lens/

[Virob]

3 hours ago, beewee said:

This is an interesting perspective of bringing a new lens to market. https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2022/02/why-manufacturers-make-a-specific-camera-lens/

An interesting read. So how about a little fun with it. Sometime before 2018, Marketing, finance, design, engineering, and production at Leica agreed that it would be feasible, cost effective, and desirable to make a set of state-of-the-art SC primes of the same size, of similar weight and price, with the same F stop of 21, 24, 28, 35, 50, 75 and 90mm. Heck, Panasonic has done something very similar only 18, 24, 35, 50 and 85mm f1.8. Who knows, this might have even been a joint decision between the two companies. The 75 and 90 get released first, followed by the 50, takes a little longer for the 35 and after a long delay the 28. After an even longer delay, the 24 seems to be cancelled and the 21 is still nowhere to be seen. What happened? ( other that COVID).

Here is a completely make up  scenario

the 28, as, good as it is, hasn’t sold all that well.
Finance says, hold it, we aren’t selling enough at price, we are losing money, we need to increase the price.

Marketing says, price is already near the upper limit we can’t go much higher.

Finance,  well, we can’t continue with the 24/21 at those unit numbers and price, stop further development or find ways to make them cheaper.

Marketing, the 28 is an outlier, it was a mistake to make that one next,  the other 2 should sell better. Trust us.

Finance, we trusted you about the 28, look we’re that got us, prove it, meanwhile new lenses on hold.

Marketing, does more research. ok, well, we agree, not economical or enough demand to  make both, we recommend only proceeding with 21 for now. But it will be the most expensive SC primes to make.

Finance, not good, still don’t trust you completely, plus the SL system isn’t selling as expected overall. Find a way to make it cheaper.

Engineering/Production , we are already reusing most of the mechanical parts and the assembly line, not a lot a savings to be had unless Optical design can make the design even closer to the 28. Some of that glass is expensive and difficult to make. Get Optical design to reevaluate.

Optical design, are you kidding? We did an amazing job. Do you have any idea how hard it was to design a 21, based on the restrictions from Engineering  and Production, and keep it to the Finance budget and now you want to change it? Actually, we would like to make a glass change because the more expensive glass is giving a better result.

Finance, what the #@&*! No! Go experiment with some cheaper glass that is easier to make.

Engineering and Production, and don’t change anything else or we will also have to redesign.

Optical design, ok will try, but we think this is stupid.

….several years pass…

Marketing, what the heck is going on? We have customers screaming for the 21 what is the hold up?

Optical design, Engineering and Finance, point fingers at each other.

Optical design, new glass not giving the desired results.

Marketing, we need to get this out, go back to the design that works, and don’t raise the price too much, trust us, the market is there and we can make up the difference with increased number of sales.

Optical design, can we use the better glass we originally suggested?

Production, making that glass in the volume of expected sales is going to be tough, we need more time.

Marketing and Finance, …harumpf.. 

…and so another year goes by….🤪

 

 

[robb]

That’s a great series of back and forth. Lol

Likely close to a correct version of events.  
 

Apo lenses are truly fantastic.  I wish things weren’t slow with their R&D and rollout, but all the others I shoot with really make my day.  I’ll look forward to the imminent 21.  Late to the party but another all star.  No other camera maker can deliver what these lenses and the user experience give me… except the continuous AF.  But I just work around that.  
Just because the 21/24 are delayed wouldn’t make me miss out on the other magic to be had.  Anyone on the fence should go for it.  Daylight is burning.

Robb
 

[Jürgen]

Sorry, I didn't accept the Leica SL policy and changed to the Hasselblad X2D-100c.

The SL2 autofocus is not state of the art. The Apo Sl lenses are fantastic, but I have to see the whole workflow, not only the lens.

And here is - at my point of view - Hasselblad much better. Bigger sensor and new back lighted technology. Better IBIS and less weight.

The new Hasselblad V-lenses are also fantastic. I have the XCD 38V. 

And I didn't like to wait years for the SL 21/24 and a new and better SL3.

This was my decision and I'm glad with it!!!  

[robb]

15 minutes ago, Jürgen said:

Sorry, I didn't accept the Leica SL policy and changed to the Hasselblad X2D-100c.

The SL2 autofocus is not state of the art. The Apo Sl lenses are fantastic, but I have to see the whole workflow, not only the lens.

And here is - at my point of view - Hasselblad much better. Bigger sensor and new back lighted technology. Better IBIS and less weight.

The new Hasselblad V-lenses are also fantastic. I have the XCD 38V. 

And I didn't like to wait years for the SL 21/24 and a new and better SL3.

This was my decision and I'm glad with it!!!  

No waiting on features or lenses with the x2d lol… right.

I also like the x2d for different reasons.  Color on people is fantastic.  The 38 I have focuses accurately every time, although it will not set any AF speed records.  It is quiet, the ibis is great.  Shooting in manual mode with flash has its quirks similar to the sl2.  
my 55 is arriving this week.  That will be exciting to start using.  We’ll see if the new 90 arrives befor the Leica apo 21…

I don’t see the x2d replacing the sl2 for most of what I do, but think it is also a great camera.  I don’t see the new SL3 replacing the x2d either.  Different tools to me.
Robb

 

[Planetwide]

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The Engineering is done, and has been for a while.

 

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[BernardC]

9 hours ago, Planetwide said:

The Engineering is done, and has been for a while.

Surely there's a bit more to it than making a pretty drawing? If it was that simple, every brand would sell APO-Summicrons!

[Planetwide]

Sure, every Manufacturer takes 4+ years to design and build a lens...

[Virob]

 

On the other hand

21/2 Apo announced on Leica lens roadmap Sept 25, 2018

Q2 released March 7, 2019

Q3 released May, 26, 2023

21/2 apo released ???

New cameras also time to develop.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Virob said:

New cameras also time to develop.

Apples and oranges. Optical engineers are not the same as hardware engineers, in the same way the camera on your smartphone is developed by a team and the motherboard of your smartphone is developed by a different team. 

[Simone_DF]

It’s probably more a matter of cost vs RoI. The 28 APO didn’t look a commercial success, at least by looking at the scarcity of posts on the forum compared to the 35, 50, 75 and 90. 
I wonder if we’ll see the 24mm at all, since it sits too close between 21 and 28

[Planetwide]

Leica needs to own this. Releasing the 28mm right after the 35mm was a marketing mistake. The 21 & 24mm Should have been next. It seems like they are using the M system as a guide to produce lenses for the SL system, and that is the mistake IMHO. SL users are not M users, and want the flexibility that they were promised in the original road map.

This is a case of "if you don't build it, they won't buy"...

[jplomley]

27 minutes ago, Planetwide said:

Leica needs to own this. Releasing the 28mm right after the 35mm was a marketing mistake. The 21 & 24mm Should have been next. It seems like they are using the M system as a guide to produce lenses for the SL system, and that is the mistake IMHO. SL users are not M users, and want the flexibility that they were promised in the original road map.

This is a case of "if you don't build it, they won't buy"...

Agreed. 21 or 24 should have been next. These should offer incredible performance and close focussing on these with the signature of these lenses wide open will offer new shooting opportunities. 28 mm after the 35 made no sense whatsoever, particularly in lieu of the Q series. 28 mm should have been last IMHO.

[Planetwide]

Just to be clear, while I am critical of Leica's snail pace of lens releases. I absolutely love the look of the SL system. Add the 21m & 24mm, which I will buy, and I'll shut up (for a while   ). Nobody wants Leica to succeed with this system more than me, and I fear that their inaction will be its demise. I would love to see some Leica designed/built additional lenses, like a 135mm F2.0, a 70-200mm F2.8 plus 1.4x, a 28-75mm F2.0 and a 100-400mm f4.0-5.6 

[beewee]

8 hours ago, Planetwide said:

Sure, every Manufacturer takes 4+ years to design and build a lens...

See post #115 and #142.

[Stuart Richardson]

Let’s just hope this is not an S system situation…they had the 55mm completely ready and even produced for the Thalia (which were essentially remounted S lenses), but never released it as an S lens. I think they will get around to it pretty soon though (ever the optimist). 

[MediaFotografie]

any news? Now we have mid of June - and still nothing?

In September we can celebrate 5 years of announcement without releasing this lens, wow...

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jplomley]

26 minutes ago, MediaFotografie said:

any news? Now we have mid of June - and still nothing?

In September we can celebrate 5 years of announcement without releasing this lens, wow...

I've pressed my 16-35 SVE recently for my lifestyle photography and I must confess I can't wait for the APO f/2.0 wide angles. Close focus wide open imaging will offer a very unique look for this genre that I cannot accomplish with the 16-35. I have recently contemplated picking up a Canon or Nikon just so I can use their 24/1.4 lenses, but I know if I do this, that will be the exact day Leica will launch the 21/24 APO's. 

[TeleElmar135mm]

I gave up - and orderes the Sigma Art with a big discount from the dealer ...