Leica SL 21,.. plz

[DrM]

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Hi

I build my lens setup for the SL2 on the 21, 35,75 scheme. With the incredible slow maturing of the SL2 and lens system I cannot call Leica a brand for professional photographers. Sure there are alternatives, but I value a single brand approach. Leica, please release the SL 21 and restore my faith in a brand that makes great stuff, not just empty marketing.

Best,

Marc

 

[MediaFotografie]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb DrM:

I build my lens setup for the SL2 on the 21, 35,75 scheme.

I'm looking for 21-35-90 - and the 21mm is still missing...  

 

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[Andrew Gough]

It is really quite absurd... The lack of communication, lens maps, or any indications, is quite frankly - a marketing disaster.

I understand Covid, but we are 3 years since they were announced, and still no 21 & 24mm lenses. The 28mm (Feb 2021) didn't sell well, because it was too close the 35mm - bad decision by Leica.  They really need to show the SL some love, or it will start to look orphaned. At this rate, I will be dead by the time some of the other lenses, 135mm. 180mm, 400mm etc... ship.

How many lenses has SIgma announced? 5-10? We are looking for one or two from Leica.

 

[Stef63]

1 hour ago, Andrew Gough said:

It is really quite absurd... The lack of communication, lens maps, or any indications, is quite frankly - a marketing disaster.

Welcome to Leica where you have to start thinking in “Leitz” years instead of regular 365 day years 😀

Maybe the excellent Leica Super-Elmar-M 21mm f/3.4 ASPH is an alternative?  No autofocus of course but that should not be a problem with this wide angle of view.  And more compact than an SL21 ever wil be. I regularly use an even wider Super-Elmar-M 18mm f/3.8 ASPH on my SL2 with superb results.  This manual focus lens is a joy to use on the SL body and much more convenient than on an M10 with EVF.

[MrFriendly]

I get the impression that the SL isn't doing so well, and after owning it for a month, I can see why that might be the case.  The TL was discontinued.  There seems to be no plans to update the CL.  Who is buying the S?  Unless they make some needed improvements in the next SL camera body, I don't see it lasting that long.  As it is, it's mostly suited for static subjects and static setup (studio work, corporate head shots, product photography, etc), and you don't really need 21mm or 24mm for that kind of work. 

[Andrew Gough]

Well, its definitely not going to do well if the manufacturer doesn't support it properly. Slow firmware updates, lethargic lens introductions, and a lack of clarity are just a few problems. The  AF issue is way overblown, the SL series are fine, and if used correctly, quite good. Sure my R5 is faster, but not everyone is shooting sports. My TS lenses some how focus at the same speed on the SL2 and the R5. 😁

[Andrew Gough]

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4 hours ago, Stef63 said:

Welcome to Leica where you have to start thinking in “Leitz” years instead of regular 365 day years 😀

Maybe the excellent Leica Super-Elmar-M 21mm f/3.4 ASPH is an alternative?  No autofocus of course but that should not be a problem with this wide angle of view.  And more compact than an SL21 ever wil be. I regularly use an even wider Super-Elmar-M 18mm f/3.8 ASPH on my SL2 with superb results.  This manual focus lens is a joy to use on the SL body and much more convenient than on an M10 with EVF.

F3.4, I'll just use the 16-35mm, either Leica or Panasonic. I have both. Its the F2 or faster that I think most people want, along with AF. Otherwise, you might as well shoot the M series. 

Leitz years don't cut it anymore...  Lets be clear, Leica has customers that want to buy lenses. Why they don't provide their customers what they want is beyond me. The engineering is done, they just need to put them into production. 

 

[aksclix]

I was waiting for the 21 too for a year and a half but not anymore.. used up the funds on something else.. just gonna make do with the good ol' 24-90! They just want to satisfy the 'M' crowd.. the other models are just there as a side offering.. 

such slow production rates for lenses are really quite off-putting! Lumix is probably just a tad better... taking forever to release a solid line up.. a macro lens has been missing and they just won't make it! 85, 50, 24, 35 f1.2 were added at snail's pace! 

 

[aksclix]

4 hours ago, Stef63 said:

“Leitz” years instead of regular 365 day years 

hahaha! that could become a real thing... the production of SL 21 is Leitz years away   

[Virob]

I wasn’t planning on investing in the L mount until the 21SL was available. A good deal on a local SL2 changed that. 21 is probably my favourite focal length and is the Leica lens I’m most interested in. Based on the 28SL release  however, I’m not expecting to see it for another year or more, but would welcome being proved wrong. Seriously considering moving on. Anyone have experience with the Zeiss milvus 21/2.8?

[jplomley]

17 hours ago, Andrew Gough said:

It is really quite absurd... The lack of communication, lens maps, or any indications, is quite frankly - a marketing disaster.

I understand Covid, but we are 3 years since they were announced, and still no 21 & 24mm lenses. The 28mm (Feb 2021) didn't sell well, because it was too close the 35mm - bad decision by Leica.  They really need to show the SL some love, or it will start to look orphaned. At this rate, I will be dead by the time some of the other lenses, 135mm. 180mm, 400mm etc... ship.

How many lenses has SIgma announced? 5-10? We are looking for one or two from Leica.

 

Exactly why I will be exiting the SL system this year. I have waited far too long for the wide angle primes. Leica has lost my business.  

[BernardC]

2 hours ago, jplomley said:

Exactly why I will be exiting the SL system this year. I have waited far too long for the wide angle primes. Leica has lost my business.  

Will you find a better 21 in a different system? I hear that the Sony 21 is pretty good, but not any better than the Sigma, Panasonic, and Leica options that cover this focal length. Canon doesn't have a non-zoom 21 yet. I guess there's Nikon, but they have other gaps in their lens range (and their manual focus turns the wrong way).

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, BernardC said:

Will you find a better 21 in a different system? I hear that the Sony 21 is pretty good, but not any better than the Sigma, Panasonic, and Leica options that cover this focal length. Canon doesn't have a non-zoom 21 yet. I guess there's Nikon, but they have other gaps in their lens range (and their manual focus turns the wrong way).

Actually both Sony and Nikon offerings are 20mm, not 21.

I had the Sony 20mm for about a month and it was impressive, sharp corner to corner even at f1.8. It is indeed better than the Sigma 12-24. 

Anyway, Panasonic is coming out with a 18mm f/1.8, so it may be worth to wait, if the OP can live with 18mm, or use one of the three 21mm Voigtlanders

https://www.dpreview.com/news/2336997442/panasonic-teases-18mm-f1-8-lumix-s-prime-a-day-after-revealing-its-new-35mm-prime-lens

[Stuart Richardson]

I too think it would be great to have a Leica 21mm Summicron. These wide angles are the best reason for primes for me...it is hard to find a zoom lens that can render with edge to edge sharpness and no distortions (either geometric or other aberrations). For the work that I do with landscapes and architecture, I would gladly swap the convenience of a zoom lens for better rendering, especially for night work.

[Stef63]

16 hours ago, Andrew Gough said:

F3.4, I'll just use the 16-35mm, either Leica or Panasonic. I have both. Its the F2 or faster that I think most people want, along with AF. Otherwise, you might as well shoot the M series. 

There is also the Summilux 21 M F1.4....

What is the reason people would want F2 or faster on a wide angle?  Good question.  The number one reason I can think of is being able to isolate a very near object and playing with DOF.  For further distance objects F2 and F3.4 will not give a significant difference in DOF.  The number two reason could be available light but with a sensor like the one in the SL2 or SL2S that should also make not a big difference.  And with a steady hand you can go as low is 1/30s with such a wide angle of view.  And I forgot there is also IBIS to help you.  So available light cannot be the dealbreaker between F2 or lower and F3.4.  

AF on a wide angle lens is also of lesser importance (to me at least).  Glue you focus ring on the hyper focal distance and you should be fine for most captures except maybe for those composition where the main subject is at very close distance and you want to play with DOF.  But then I think the chances the SL2 AF will correctly select that subject automatically without a little manual intervention are not 100%.  AF on wide angle lenses seems more to comply with a personal habit of always using AF than a necessity to avoid missing the shot.  But again that is my opinion and no problem if others have other opinions. 

Concerning the use of a wide angle M lens on an M body : with these lenses you will need to rely on the external EVF on an M body.  And here the EVF of the SL2 is far better than the EVF on the M.  For example I use all my wide angle lenses (wider than the M frame lines go) on the SL2 instead of my M10.

A point not addressed is the lens quality and here the SL21 might make the difference between the wide angle zooms and/or the Leica M prime options.   If it is as good or better as the other SL primes that might very well be the most differentiating factor to wait for it.  Honestly (to me) it is not the AF or F2 or lower aperture. 

UPDATE : Stuart just addressed the point of lens quality seconds ago

Edited December 15, 2021 by Stef63

[Simone_DF]

9 minutes ago, Stef63 said:

What is the reason people would want F2 or faster on a wide angle?  Good question.

I could think of astrophotography or shooting fast moving subjects in low light. Neither is my use case, but I can see why people might want f1.4 to f2 wides.

[BernardC]

To me, the main reason why I would want a "Summicron-SL 21" is to achieve a consistent look with the other Summicron-SL lenses. It's an issue for those who produce images as sets rather than individually.

This applies to video, wedding/event, catalog, reportage, publishing, and fine art (if pictures are exhibited together). Leica has made a huge effort to make sure that all of the lenses in a set look very similar. This is a feature that you traditionally find in real cine lenses. Leica started doing this with the S lens set (which is also a cine "Thalia" set), and have followed-though with the Summicron-SL lenses.

Arguably, the 16-35 Vario-Elmar is the closest match to the Summicrons, but it's probably not quite there in terms of micro-contrast and corner sharpness.

That being said, I don't know of any competing lens lineup that achieves this level of consistency, other than mega-expensive cine sets. Most lineups have a mix of hard, soft, flarey, contrasty, etc. Even the M lenses include a mix of "vintage" and "modern," for lack of better terms.

[aksclix]

A gfx 50r or 50s + gf 23mm together would be cheaper than an SL21.. better yet I have the 100s and gf 23mm… I don’t think the SL2 + SL 21 would produce better results than the medium format gfx setup which is a cheaper option here..

18 months ago when I got the SL2 I was very excited about the prospects of SL 21 but it never came!! A 28 SL when there was already a close 35 SL seemed more important to launch first? I couldn’t say it enough.. why is there no macro in the line up? It’s been 6 years since SL was launched! 
 

anyway, I feel usability wise I am more happy with their zooms 24-90 and 90-280.. I think I saved 5 grand because the SL 21 never came 😌

[Stuart Richardson]

The "you could afford X for the price of X" game is one that is often played, but is usually beside the point. If I wanted a GFX, I would have one. I would like a 21mm Leica prime for the SL, because the SL2 is the camera that I prefer to use. "Better results" is also so subjective. If pure resolution is the arbiter, than the GFX100 is going to win in most cases, because it has more than 50 extra megapixels and lenses good enough to use most of them. But the Leica is absolutely no slouch on this front, and the quality of the lenses and pixel level sharpness of the SL2 sensor means that you are not even going to see a resolution difference until you are in the greater than 1m/40 inch wide print size. And of course, there is something to be said for consistency in terms of character and even in just using the same camera. Certainly a 21mm summicron is lighter than packing an SL2 alongside a GFX and 23mm.

Anyway, don't mean to pile on you, I just think that Leica needs to flesh out their lens line, as you said. What they are doing instead, is ceding that market to Sigma...giving them the longest lenses, wide angles and macro lenses.

One thing I will say, however, is that the 50mm APO Summicron is so good in the close range that I use it with complete success as a macro lens for artwork reproduction. I photographed an entire artbook for a US publisher on the 50mm APO Summicron because I could not tell a difference in image quality between it and the 120mm APO Macro Summarit S in the close range for copy work. In the particular setup I was using the 50mm was a better fit, so I used it without hesitation. My guess is that the 90mm performs similarly well, though of course you are missing the higher reproduction ratios.

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[aksclix]

Of course there’s lots to like about the SL2 which is why I may never give up the 24-90 or the 90-280 either.. I even got a 75 SL a couple of months ago.. that may be the one to go if I ever decide to sell anything from the SL line up.. simply because I want to use the 90-280 when I feel the need to use a 75.. Back in the DSLR days a 70-200 f2.8 has been extensively used as a portrait lens and that was either equally heavy or heavier compared to the 90-280! SL2 will stay until the SL3 replaces it I guess.. 

if the SL21 was available even 6 months ago, I would’ve bought it! Talking about resolution though, yes the SL2 has enough of it.. it’s great if you frame your shot perfectly every time.. I am not a purist.. I love flexibility.. I like the MF for its ability to retain incredible detail despite all the cropping I want to do.. With landscapes I am not too concerned about color reproduction.. landscapes generally don’t have a lot of vibrant colors (unless it’s fall season) and Fuji does a pretty good job too.. in fact a lot of photographers prefer Fuji’s colors. I was processing an old raw image from my D810 today and found that the images were not so great after some cropping.. don’t know if my lens was crappy but i was quite disappointed to see that. It was 36MP by the way..

 Gfx has spoiled me a lot and none of the images I’ve processed from that camera disappointed me.. 

On macro, I do need the 1:1 reproduction at the least.. so using anything else is not an option for me. I did like the IQ on S120 but it was a pain using it on SL2 so I sold it