M3 vs. MP advance lever feeling

[gabrielaszalos]

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Hello again friends! Long time no post.

I bought an M3 online, in fantastic condition, but from the '60s and rusty (rusty as in need for CLA), so I've sent it in for a CLA to Will van Manen. Awesome job!

I noticed that when advancing the M3, it is absolutely smooth all the way, "buttery smooth" as some would say. I also have a 2021 MP, which I've maybe run 20-30 rolls through at most. I haven't used it that much honestly. But I notice that its advance lever feel is very different. It feels as if it advances in small steps if that makes sense. Not sure how to explain it. It's simply not as smooth. It's like the butter isn't there

My question is: from your experience, is this just a matter of "breaking it in"? I mean the M3 is from the '60s, so it might've been used a lot more than 20-30 rolls. Then again, those are also brass gears. It's also that the CLA might've used some fancy lubrication. I don't know. Do you think the MP will move closer to being like the M3 or it's hard to tell? I assume there are differences between one copy and another anyway...

Edited November 13, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

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[gabrielaszalos]

I recorded the sound with my iPhone. As you can see, there is almost nothing to be heard on the M3 before reaching the end of the advance. Whereas the MP has quite the noise.

M3.m4a MP.m4a

[250swb]

I'm sure your MP will bed in over time and become smooth. My MP is very smooth although the smoothest film advance on any Leica I've ever had, M3, M2, M4, M6, etc. is my current M4-P, despite it's steel gears.

[a.noctilux]

Saw/feel this years ago.

Steel gears in MP and brass in M3.

In my view this 'feeling' would not become better with time on MP.

Brass is self-lubricate, not steel.

Edited November 13, 2021 by a.noctilux

[gabrielaszalos]

1 minute ago, 250swb said:

I'm sure your MP will bed in over time and become smooth. My MP is very smooth although the smoothest film advance on any Leica I've ever had, M3, M2, M4, M6, etc. is my current M4-P, despite it's steel gears.

Yeah. I vaguely remember hearing different people claim this about different models. So I'm thinking it could be just up to the copy you get. I guess time will tell!

[andrew01]

I have an M3 and an M6.  The M3 has the smoothest film advance of any camera I own, and is an absolute pleasure to use.  The M6 is a little bit rougher but still nice enough.  Many have written that the difference in feel is because the M2/3/4 has brass gears.  From M4-2 onwards these were replaced with steel gears which are more durable for use with a motor drive.

I don’t think ‘breaking in’ is a factor.  The steel gear cameras will never feel as smooth as the original Wetzlar cameras with brass gears.

[michali]

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The advance on my 1957 M3 is the smoothest, followed  by my MP then M4 & M6. I agree that it's probably a combination of materials used & age probably also plays a role.

[250swb]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

Saw/feel this years ago.

Steel gears in MP and brass in M3.

In my view this 'feeling' would not become better with time on MP.

Brass is self-lubricate, not steel.

What is meant by brass being 'self lubricating' is the brass wearing down, it laps together, brass on brass, and gradually disappears into a dust or a composite paste of brass loaded grease. There is a sweet spot where the brass gears all mesh together perfectly, but it will never last, and not for as long as steel. And if you have an issue with steel I wonder why F1 gearboxes have steel gears when strength, longevity, and lack of friction is paramount?

[a.noctilux]

Quick search

brass-bronze

alloy like this one (High Strength Yellow Brass) could be used by Leica ?

Edited November 13, 2021 by a.noctilux

[frakaphoto]

Steel were but in M4-2 and followers by canadian engineering to be able to support grungy M motors which were fashion at this time.  My M-A were very smooth, maybe a question of temperature..like my M2, M7, M4-2… maybe I am lucky . 

[Topsy]

I have an M2 from 1962 and an MP fro 2003 if anything the MP is smoother but the M2 had not been used for many years before I bought it and it needed a good service which might be significant. I suspect my MP has had more film thorugh it than my M2.

[105012]

Also possibly worth being aware that the M3 switched from a spring based return mechanism to a ratchet based one from 963k onwards. I have examples on both sides of that and for sure haptic pleasure my earlier ones (which were produced firstly as double stroke spring then single stroke spring) are quite special. That’s not to say there is anything wrong with my later single stroke ratchet, it’s a joy as well.

[kivis]

Used them both. The MP will smooth out a bit over time, but having said that a good copy of an M3 is oh so smooth.

[gabrielaszalos]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:37 PM, 250swb said:

What is meant by brass being 'self lubricating' is the brass wearing down, it laps together, brass on brass, and gradually disappears into a dust or a composite paste of brass loaded grease. There is a sweet spot where the brass gears all mesh together perfectly, but it will never last, and not for as long as steel. And if you have an issue with steel I wonder why F1 gearboxes have steel gears when strength, longevity, and lack of friction is paramount?

Yet this M3 is now 60 years old and kickin’. On the other hand MPs be breaking like crazy. So I’m not sure that point matters much. 

[earleygallery]

Ever driven two of the exact same model of car?

[250swb]

1 hour ago, gabrielaszalos said:

Yet this M3 is now 60 years old and kickin’. 

Presumably never been serviced then, amazing! No the other hand show me the MP's that have been breaking compared with M3's that broke when they were new? No you can't can you, but confirmation bias is alive and well.

[gabrielaszalos]

20 hours ago, 250swb said:

Presumably never been serviced then, amazing! No the other hand show me the MP's that have been breaking compared with M3's that broke when they were new? No you can't can you, but confirmation bias is alive and well.

True. I can't. You may have a point there. But, do you really think M3s would be breaking as often as MPs? Like, think about how much more film cameras were used back then, and how much more expertise was available compared to now when it's just niche.

Edited November 16, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[Matlock]

1 hour ago, gabrielaszalos said:

True. I can't. You may have a point there. But, do you really think M3s would be breaking as often as MPs? Like, think about how much more film cameras were used back then, and how much more expertise was available compared to now when it's just niche.

MPs only seem to be "breaking like crazy" on this forum. In real life they are much more reliable than M3s which, given that M3s are around 60 years old, is hardly surprising. Sadly my M3 is now dead and unrepairable but my MP never misses a beat.

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[Vlad Soare]

On 11/13/2021 at 9:37 PM, 250swb said:

And if you have an issue with steel I wonder why F1 gearboxes have steel gears when strength, longevity, and lack of friction is paramount?

Maybe because F1 drivers couldn't care less about how smooth the gears feel and sound? 

[wattsy]

I suppose if you spend all day winding on your camera, the "buttery smoothness" 😂 of the wind mechanism would be important and I don't doubt that the old M3 bodies are the most desirable in this respect. However, if your objective is take a few photographs, the modest difference in smoothness really doesn't matter provided the camera can reliably wind on the film when you want it to. The rest is just cork-sniffing.