Options to replace the CL

[Marac]

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The Fuji system is the natural answer for me to your question. The menu system is a nightmare but once set up to how you want it becomes a non-issue. They have IBIS a decent EVF and also a rack of excellent lenses already and if that is not enought then you can adapt most other lenses very well and in some cases with AF, they also have weather sealing too.

I have had a play with an X100F and the XT-3 the latter being my preference.

Like most however, I am delighted with the CL regardless of IBIS as I use it mostly with M-mount lenses (wish I still had the 11-23). I will keep my CL alongside my M9M and should they, at some point release the CL2 I will have my CL converted to IR.

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[LocalHero1953]

Just now, Marac said:

The Fuji system is the natural answer for me to your question. The menu system is a nightmare but once set up to how you want it becomes a non-issue. They have IBIS a decent EVF and also a rack of excellent lenses already and if that is not enought then you can adapt most other lenses very well and in some cases with AF, they also have weather sealing too.

I have had a play with an X100F and the XT-3 the latter being my preference.

Like most however, I am delighted with the CL regardless of IBIS as I use it mostly with M-mount lenses (wish I still had the 11-23). I will keep my CL alongside my M9M and should they, at some point release the CL2 I will have my CL converted to IR.

When I commented that the Fuji system might be too 'alien', I was referring to the X-Trans sensor and whether I would be happy with its colour and post processing. It seems to be a bit of a Marmite issue - some people like it, others do not.

[Marac]

1 minute ago, LocalHero1953 said:

When I commented that the Fuji system might be too 'alien', I was referring to the X-Trans sensor and whether I would be happy with its colour and post processing. It seems to be a bit of a Marmite issue - some people like it, others do not.

I always shoot in RAW but as you say, it is a Marmite situation. By the way, I love Marmite.

[cboy]

19 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I am thinking about alternatives 

• Fuji? Too alien a system for someone used to Leica?
• Sigma fpL? Poor ergonomics for handheld

Fuji - rangefinder like xpro has manual exposure dials..how is it alien to leica?

Sigma - its meant to be modular. I.e to be adapted and customised with attachments and grips. But id admit the balance is off with the current evf. If they made it more compact somehow. Ergonomics however, is subjective.

Why do you need to seek an alternative to the CL apart from the benefits of a sensor upgrade?

Edited November 3, 2021 by cboy

[LocalHero1953]

29 minutes ago, cboy said:

Fuji - rangefinder like xpro has manual exposure dials..how is it alien to leica?

 

 

35 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

When I commented that the Fuji system might be too 'alien', I was referring to the X-Trans sensor and whether I would be happy with its colour and post processing. It seems to be a bit of a Marmite issue - some people like it, others do not.

 

[rob_w]

I have been following the Canon R system - the bodies are good in the hand and about 2/3 the weight of the SL etc.  Problem is: the best Canon R lenses are seriously big and heavy.  I was hoping for later releases to be more compact and light in keeping with the EVF ethos.  But no luck so far.  The smaller lenses are cheaper and lower quality in performance (although opinions vary I guess).

Sean Reid has continues to review Fuji and Pentax APS-C offerings and is often very pleased with the results.  That might be another avenue of exploration if you are happy to subscribe to his site.

[LocalHero1953]

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33 minutes ago, cboy said:

Why do you need to seek an alternative to the CL apart from the benefits of a sensor upgrade?

 

17 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

 

See the link in my post 1, and my post 7!

I know that an OP does not own a thread, but I really would like to keep this thread to the question I asked!

 

Edit:

At risk of diverting the thread I quote from the post I linked to in post #1
"I agree with those who say that if there was no new camera in the CL/APS-C line then the CL in my hands would not stop working overnight, and would continue to take the same pictures it has done since I bought it at launch. But the CL is not my only camera, and I valued the fact that I could also use my SL: the scenarios for shooting and the resultant image quality were comparable at smaller reproductions - I print up to A3 without big differences between CL and SL. The reason for having both cameras is that the SL was weatherproof, had better EVF and video, longer battery life, was probably more rugged (though neither broke), and there was no equivalent to the 90-280SL. 

The SL2-S has changed that balance, with its far better performance (noise, colour) in low light and at high ISO. If I want to do drama rehearsals and other performances, I will take the SL2-S where the CL cannot go, even though the smaller size is ideal for that use. In those comparisons, I now find the CL files disappointing, and cannot use the two cameras interchangeably with regards to image quality."

Please accept that these are my opinions on what I need for my photography - I'm not trying to tell anyone else what they should do. It is possible that I will conclude that there is no alternative to the CL except a CL. So be it.......but please keep suggesting alternatives!🙂

 

 

[LocalHero1953]

Many thanks to all those who have made suggestions so far - I'm sorry if I've missed ticking the 'thank you' response. I'm not in the position of wanting to change cameras now - as I've said the ideal scenario would be a CL2 with a new sensor. But I'd like to be ready with an appreciation of options if and when decision time comes. I should add Nikon and Canon options to my original list, although in my very limited experience APSC offerings from other brands do not match the CL for IQ (except possibly Fuji). From the tour d'horizon in these three pages, there do not seem to be any small full frame options I have overlooked.

[LocalHero1953]

48 minutes ago, cboy said:

Sigma - its meant to be modular. I.e to be adapted and customised with attachments and grips. But id admit the balance is off with the current evf. If they made it more compact somehow. Ergonomics however, is subjective.

Yes, I agree. in my OP I referred to Sigma as a wildcard - a better term would have been maverick. Sigma might unexpectedly produce a camera combining the fpL with the EVF in a reshaped case that felt good in the hands (which the fp does not, IMO). It would slot right into the niche of the CL. Aside from the sensor, I prefer Sigma's menu system to Leica's. It would have the defect of electronic-only shutter (unless they up the read-out speed). But then, Sigma IS a maverick!

[jcalchi]

9 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

Have you considered the new Nikon Zfc? It's small, with a classic / retro design, and the Nikon sensor plays really well with most M lenses. No IBIS though. Reviews are good, but I haven't had the chance to see one in person yet. I'd buy this over a Fuji.

 

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Hero,

I want to second what Simone_DF suggested.  But my answer is that there is no substitute for the Leica CL from any other maker in APS-C.  Buy a second CL and hide it away for when / if you need to replace it.  Fuji makes some sharp machines, but they feel foreign to my muscle memory.  And it appears you like Leica for some of the same reasons I do, in that they're so elegantly simple to use and produce great pictures.

Here are my thoughts and a little context.  I have both a Nikon Z50 and the awesomely cool and fun Zfc.  I grew up with Nikon for forty nine years, and only recently had the pleasure and privilege of becoming a Leica man.  The Z50 and Zfc both make great photographs, and the Z S-Line lenses are amazingly superb and technically superior to all but a few of my F-mount Nikkor lenses.  Even the little 16-50mm kit lens that came with the Z50 makes great photos.

My Z50 is who gets to come along on backpacking trips in the back country or in a Ziplock bag on a float trip or day sail on the Sunfish.  Haven't had the courage to do that to my Leicas

I love the colors Nikon digital cameras make over all other cameras--except my Leicas.  That's right I said it.  There's just something about the colors and the feel of the images I make with my CL.  And its B&W jpegs can keep up with the Q2M in ordinary daylight to my eye:)  I can't pin it down with raw specs alone, I didn't buy my Leicas based on the specs alone at all.  I bought my Leicas based on the cumulative satisfaction they bring.  And holding a Leica camera in your hands is extremely satisfying.

The CL with the little 18mm f/2.8 kit lens is around my neck most of the time I leave the house.  (My wife says I'm a nerd, and jabs "do you really need to bring your camera, honey?") I carry the CL because it is such a simple pleasure to use, and it is an absolutely beautiful little machine.  It makes such great pictures for all but my fast action shots of my kids on their mountain bikes and other sports.  That's when the F5, F6 or D750 come out with a big fat, heavy 300mm f/2.8 on a monopod.  Previous to the CL, my daily camera was the beautiful and stellar performing Df.  It was just so natural and familiar to my hands and didn't slow me down from just taking pictures.  The CL has surpassed the Df in all aspects of being my go out the door camera--even with only 18mm reach.  (That's what my feet are for!)

Consider the little Nikons, but there is no substitute that I'd consider as a replacement for the CL.  When I add up everything that it does for me, it's the hole in one.  My CL would be the last camera in the cabinet I'd sell if I had to sell everything.  Actually, the CL and M6 don't currently live in the cabinet.  My wife steals them and stages them on the bookshelves as decoration because she thinks they're so pretty!  Makes sense to me: better them than the hulking F5 , which is beautiful in it's own right:)

Good luck with your search.

jcalchi

[LocalHero1953]

Did a quick survey of candidate camera specs. This table is sorted by body weight. It shows what the CL achieved just in making the package, let alone considering its image quality.

Can anyone comment on whether any of them has better low light capability than the CL. No point (for me) in switching if none of them does.

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[Boojay]

Think you should add a column for IBIS enabled bodies - makes a big difference for lowlight shooting.  Out of your above list I have only tried the CL S5 Q2 M10R and R6.  I ended up with an R6 more for its autofocus capability than anything else, having said that it's the best low light performer I have ever used, but 20mp may not be enough for some.

 

Edited November 4, 2021 by Boojay

[oldwino]

I've just purchased the Ricoh GR3x (with the "40mm" lens), and it is a worthy replacement to the CL. Easily pocketable, and no excuse not to take it with you. Great raw files, very sharp lens that has character, too. 

It is not a "do-everything" camera, but for what it was designed to do - a small snapshot/travel/notebook camera - it does very well indeed. I don't even miss having a viewfinder, as the ergonomics are well thought out.

[Louis]

A fixed lens camera can’t be a substitute for interchangeable lens CL. Not only I love my TL lenses, I am also using half dozen manual Nikkor. Not comparable!

[jaapv]

48 minutes ago, oldwino said:

I've just purchased the Ricoh GR3x (with the "40mm" lens), and it is a worthy replacement to the CL. Easily pocketable, and no excuse not to take it with you. Great raw files, very sharp lens that has character, too. 

It is not a "do-everything" camera, but for what it was designed to do - a small snapshot/travel/notebook camera - it does very well indeed. I don't even miss having a viewfinder, as the ergonomics are well thought out.

I don't think it can be a CL replacement. The strength of the CL is its versatility in a small package.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Did a quick survey of candidate camera specs. This table is sorted by body weight. It shows what the CL achieved just in making the package, let alone considering its image quality.

Can anyone comment on whether any of them has better low light capability than the CL. No point (for me) in switching if none of them does.

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The Panasonic S5 has an identical Photographic Dynamic Range to the SL2S. I suspect it is the same basic sensor with a different Bayer filter.

Ignore the blip, think it is an artifact in a bit that lacks measurements

 

[cboy]

Can one justify upgrading with 1/2 - 1 stop improvement?

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How about waiting till panasonic releases its new sensor sometime down the road. Or is it too long a wait 🤣

https://www.eoshd.com/news/ibc-show-panasonic-8k-organic-sensor-prototype-camera-with-on-chip-nd-and-16-stop-dynamic-range/

[oldwino]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I don't think it can be a CL replacement. The strength of the CL is its versatility in a small package.

But 90% of my CL use was with the 18 or Sigma 30, so for me the Ricohs are a valid replacement, with a lighter and smaller profile. 
For other photographic adventures, I’ve got the S5. 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[jaapv]

I use the camera to its full extent. 

[LeicaS2]

The world went FF. Sigma shows you can make small AF FF  L mount lenses. Let’s see if Leica bothers to make them, and put on a QS interchangeable lens camera.