Options to replace the CL

[LocalHero1953]

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I posted in another thread about why, despite my CL still working fine, I am thinking about alternatives if there is to be no CL2 (which remains a matter of speculation).
I asked: what's the solution, if you want a small, light, high quality modern camera, of simple, easily controlled design, that can bear comparison with the latest sensor technology for IQ?

• Fuji? Too alien a system for someone used to Leica?
• M10R / M11? Too heavy, too wedded to tradition, poor framing?
• Q2? Not enough pixels at 50-75mm?
• Ricoh GRIII? Limited to wide angle?
• Sigma fpL? Poor ergonomics for handheld?

What else? Sony doesn't come into the equation for me - interface too messy. Sigma might come up trumps if they reshape the fp and integrate an EVF - they are my wildcard.

Edited November 2, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I am not worrying about it yet, with the chip shortage and screwy supply chains, I'd give it another year. The M10 came out before the CL, why not the M11 first and the CL2 down the road.

Edited November 2, 2021 by tommonego@gmail.com

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[ramarren]

What is it that you think you're missing out on? When I need more than the CL has to offer when it comes to dynamic range and resolution, I pull out the Hasselblad 907x and accept that I need to work with a larger, heavier camera for that addition. There isn't anything in APS-C to FF format that nets a significant advantage that I need/know of, not without being much much bigger and heavier.

G

[Michael Markey]

Never used a Fuji but the colour options they offer are very attractive to my eyes .

I prefer them to Leica actually .

If I didn`t have a CL system Fuji would be the one which I`d go for without a doubt .

As to them being an alien system  ,I always found that you can get used to anything after a while .

Obviously some  systems are better than others but non as easy and well thought out as Leica .

If the results are there though I`ll put up with too many buttons / handling issues or haptics.

 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Michael Markey

[wda]

Paul, you have surveyed possible alternatives, without much success. Make the most of what you have. In the meantime, buy a second CL body if you want a measure of insurance.

There are good, well-rehearsed, reasons for deferred and uncertain replacement programmes. Enjoy what you have. Jumping ship carries too many risks, with no guarantee that you will find a satisfactory replacement. I find that mastering new techniques can sometimes bring you a feeling of having a new camera. There, you are feeling better already. 😁

[Viv]

I have the CL, the Q2 and the Fuji XT-3.

They all sit on the same shelf and do not fight.

[LocalHero1953]

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1 hour ago, ramarren said:

What is it that you think you're missing out on?

Rather than duplicate a post, my answer is in the post that I linked to in my first line. 

I was hoping not to get engaged in a "What is wrong with the CL?" debate, but rather look at ideas for alternatives that meet the criteria in the underlined line in my first post.

Edited November 2, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[mike3996]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

What is it that you think you're missing out on?

Exactly.

 

The APS-C sensor technology hasn't really advanced at all, really. CL is still in the top class of APS-C image quality, so there's nowhere you can go if you want a better APS-C body.

These days cameras don't obsolete so fast than they did 10 years ago.

 

Image quality aside, is there something else you're not happy with your CL? Autofocus performance, lens selection, missing features?

Edited November 2, 2021 by mike3996

[LocalHero1953]

 

26 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Exactly.

 

The APS-C sensor technology hasn't really advanced at all, really. CL is still in the top class of APS-C image quality, so there's nowhere you can go if you want a better APS-C body.

These days cameras don't obsolete so fast than they did 10 years ago.

 

Image quality aside, is there something else you're not happy with your CL? Autofocus performance, lens selection, missing features?

See the link in my post 1, and my post 7!

I know that an OP does not own a thread, but I really would like to keep this thread to the question I asked!

 

Edit:

At risk of diverting the thread I quote from the post I linked to in post #1
"I agree with those who say that if there was no new camera in the CL/APS-C line then the CL in my hands would not stop working overnight, and would continue to take the same pictures it has done since I bought it at launch. But the CL is not my only camera, and I valued the fact that I could also use my SL: the scenarios for shooting and the resultant image quality were comparable at smaller reproductions - I print up to A3 without big differences between CL and SL. The reason for having both cameras is that the SL was weatherproof, had better EVF and video, longer battery life, was probably more rugged (though neither broke), and there was no equivalent to the 90-280SL. 

The SL2-S has changed that balance, with its far better performance (noise, colour) in low light and at high ISO. If I want to do drama rehearsals and other performances, I will take the SL2-S where the CL cannot go, even though the smaller size is ideal for that use. In those comparisons, I now find the CL files disappointing, and cannot use the two cameras interchangeably with regards to image quality."

Please accept that these are my opinions on what I need for my photography - I'm not trying to tell anyone else what they should do. It is possible that I will conclude that there is no alternative to the CL except a CL. So be it.......but please keep suggesting alternatives!🙂

Edited November 2, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Herr Barnack]

Quote

Fuji? Too alien a system for someone used to Leica?

I had an Fuji X100F which was my backup camera for a while.  The controls were too fiddly and the menu was just convoluted and Byzantine. 

When I got my Q2, the X100F gathered dust.  I ended up trading it away and have not missed it one bit.

The Q2 is a larger camera than the X100F, but it is not too big or too heavy IMHO.  It has become my everyday carry camera.  The benefits of the Q2 far outweigh the smaller size of the X100F.

The Q2 is simple, straightforward and intuitive to me; the Fuji was anything but.  That, and the Q2 does not change settings in the middle of shooting because I touched it the wrong way or breathed on it too hard.

As for the rest, Ricoh/Sigma/Sony are dead on arrival.  JMHO.  They all just leave me cold. 

No camera is perfect - the color Q2's only drawback is its less than ideal high ISO capability.  I anticipate that the Q3 will address that issue, whenever it arrives.  The Q2 Monochrom is outstanding in regard to high ISO performance.

As for the Q2 and cropping to 50-75mm perspective, it has enough pixels for online presentations.  If you want to make fine prints, use the full frame at 28mm to get the benefit of all those 47.3 megapixels - learn to zoom with your feet.  I am aware that doing so is not always possible, but do it whenever you can to maximize the resolution that is possible with the Q2's sensor.

Get the Q2 - or maybe the Q2 Monochrom, if you are a B&W enthusiast or you just want a change of pace.  You won't regret it. 😉

Edited November 2, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[LocalHero1953]

56 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Image quality aside, is there something else you're not happy with your CL? Autofocus performance, lens selection, missing features?

My apologies - I did not read your post properly. Aside from better IQ, there is nothing that makes me want to change from the system. I would like weatherproofing, but aside from that, I accept that in a smaller camera there are likely to be limitations not found in a bigger one: AF speed, IBIS etc. I am content with my current TL lenses (11-23, 18-56, 35, 60). But IQ is the heart of my wishes.

[mike3996]

49 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

But IQ is the heart of my wishes.

Okay I also misread you too quickly. I thought you wanted a compact APSC size camera but you're open to anything as long it's compact.

If you have an SL2S then you already have one of the  best IQ machines  money can buy. Few options will be but downgrades. Doubly  so if you want compact and non-Sony....

 

 A tough one!

[LocalHero1953]

3 minutes ago, mike3996 said:

Okay I also misread you too quickly. I thought you wanted a compact APSC size camera but you're open to anything as long it's compact.

If you have an SL2S then you already have one of the  best IQ machines  money can buy. Few options will be but downgrades. Doubly  so if you want compact and non-Sony....

 

 A tough one!

Yes, it is tough to reach the SL2-S standard in APSC at the moment (but who knows what's coming over the hill). The SL was already ahead of the CL, but close enough to use the two in tandem. I would like the generational shift in the CL as we had in the SL2-S.

This and subsequent posts is what I use the SL2-S for, but I just wouldn't get as clean files and as usable colour from the CL (allowing for the constraints of stage lighting!)

[Louis]

Paul, comparing to CL, how is the IQ of your SL2-S with TL lenses (with the crop)? 

If only Q2 had a 35mm lens instead of 28, my chice would be easier! 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Louis

[Michael Markey]

45 minutes ago, Louis said:

Paul, comparing to CL, how is the IQ of your SL2-S with TL lenses (with the crop)? 

If only Q2 had a 35mm lens instead of 28, my chice would be easier! 

I use my TL lenses on my SL2s  and they suffice for web , Insta , Flickr ect.

Most sites  (including this one) ask you to reduce to 4mp anyway .

The only full frame lens I have is a Pany 70 -200/4 and at the moment I don`t intend to get any more so the CL lenses will see most use on the SL2S along with the M lenses.

Interested to hear others views 

Edited November 2, 2021 by Michael Markey

[LocalHero1953]

19 minutes ago, Louis said:

Paul, comparing to CL, how is the IQ of your SL2-S with TL lenses (with the crop)? 

If only Q2 had a 35mm lens instead of 28, my chice would be easier! 

The only TL lens I occasionally use on the SL2-S is the 60TL in macro mode, for which it is excellent, and very convenient.

90mm equivalent is normally as long as I wish to go, so the 60TL is very handy on the CL; my bag usually holds just that and the 11-23.
If I know I have to be at a distance from the scene (e.g. live performances with the an audience, rather than rehearsals when I wander around on stage), that is when I use the SL with the 90-280SL.

If the Q2 had a magnifying screen and more pixels, then it might be a good substitute for the CL up to 90mm! If I decide I have to move away from the CL for IQ, then I think the Q2 is the next best option, but I would have to forego longer focal lengths. 

[Louis]

7 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

The only TL lens I occasionally use on the SL2-S is the 60TL in macro mode, for which it is excellent, and very convenient.

90mm equivalent is normally as long as I wish to go, so the 60TL is very handy on the CL; my bag usually holds just that and the 11-23.
If I know I have to be at a distance from the scene (e.g. live performances with the an audience, rather than rehearsals when I wander around on stage), that is when I use the SL with the 90-280SL.

If the Q2 had a magnifying screen and more pixels, then it might be a good substitute for the CL up to 90mm! If I decide I have to move away from the CL for IQ, then I think the Q2 is the next best option, but I would have to forego longer focal lengths. 

I have used 60TL and I know how good it is for macro; although not much control of the background for other than macro.

I have a few TL lenses and would love to use them on another body if Leica really drops CL. But unfortunately, I don't see much choice!... I just  don't find any interest on any other  of them! The sensor on SL2-S becomes really small with the crop with TL lenses; so, I was wondering about the IQ for prints!

 

[gotium]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I posted in another thread about why, despite my CL still working fine, I am thinking about alternatives if there is to be no CL2 (which remains a matter of speculation).
I asked: what's the solution, if you want a small, light, high quality modern camera, of simple, easily controlled design, that can bear comparison with the latest sensor technology for IQ?

• Fuji? Too alien a system for someone used to Leica?
• M10R / M11? Too heavy, too wedded to tradition, poor framing?
• Q2? Not enough pixels at 50-75mm?
• Ricoh GRIII? Limited to wide angle?
• Sigma fpL? Poor ergonomics for handheld?

What else? Sony doesn't come into the equation for me - interface too messy. Sigma might come up trumps if they reshape the fp and integrate an EVF - they are my wildcard.

I've done the same and haven't found anything. Q2 is great, but I wouldn't crop to 50 or 75. GRiii AND and adding the new GRiiix would give you 28 and 40 mm equivalents and the lens on the GRiii is notably sharper and more even across the frame than the Leica 18 TL, but you're limited to just the two focal lengths, the camera isn't as nice to use and there's no viewfinder (big minus). But that's the option I would find most compelling of the ones you list. And they are really, really small. 

[jaapv]

6 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I posted in another thread about why, despite my CL still working fine, I am thinking about alternatives if there is to be no CL2 (which remains a matter of speculation).
I asked: what's the solution, if you want a small, light, high quality modern camera, of simple, easily controlled design, that can bear comparison with the latest sensor technology for IQ?

• Fuji? Too alien a system for someone used to Leica?
• M10R / M11? Too heavy, too wedded to tradition, poor framing?
• Q2? Not enough pixels at 50-75mm?
• Ricoh GRIII? Limited to wide angle?
• Sigma fpL? Poor ergonomics for handheld?

What else? Sony doesn't come into the equation for me - interface too messy. Sigma might come up trumps if they reshape the fp and integrate an EVF - they are my wildcard.

Panasonic S5, various Nikon and Canon mirrorless - there is a lot to choose from.

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[hoolyproductions]

I went for a short shoot over the weekend with my SL2-s and TL 55-135. I've been curious to try them but only got my SL2-s and lenses relatively recently so couldn't leave them home until now 😆 Plus I wasn't so sure about 10mp in case I missed a good opportunity for a great shot.

I do have a CL, but really like using the SL2-s (in particular the back button focus, IBIS, and general ergonomics/aesthetic) and am happy to carry the extra 500g of camera but it's nice to go out sometimes with lighter lenses.

This one at 90mm equivalent, mild edits (and I ran it through Enhance in LR to up the resolution, turned out quite ok)

 

 

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