Options to replace the CL

[Ko.Fe.]

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On 11/4/2021 at 2:22 PM, LocalHero1953 said:

Did a quick survey of candidate camera specs. This table is sorted by body weight. It shows what the CL achieved just in making the package, let alone considering its image quality.

Can anyone comment on whether any of them has better low light capability than the CL. No point (for me) in switching if none of them does.

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Canon RP is 440 without its small battery.

https://camerasize.com/compact/#815.790,726.691,ha,f

It is first camera I don't care much if it is ISO 3600 or 36000.

I went with it and Jupiter-3 for two+ hours event under heavy, wet snow and no issues.

10 minutes compilation FF HD video with Jupiter-3 WO.

 

 

 

[Kim Dahl]

5 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Add on EVFs only work on the cameras which  were originally designed to use the specific EVF  ... Leica's EVFs were designed by Epson. The M11 EVF when available will not work on the TL2 . The M11 Viso when available will be years ahead of the original Leica T Viso 020. 

I'm sorry to hear that the new evf does not work on TL2 - it would or will give TL2 a new life for use with M lenses.  Not that the old one can not be used but the Old evf is not near CL or SL.  
If Leica can make it work on the M10 I also think they could make it work with the TL2 ? 

[FrozenInTime]

5 hours ago, dkCambridgeshire said:

Add on EVFs only work on the cameras which  were originally designed to use the specific EVF  ... Leica's EVFs were designed by Epson. The M11 EVF when available will not work on the TL2 . The M11 Viso when available will be years ahead of the original Leica T Viso 020. 

Agree that is most likely ... but it depends on the interface physical connections and protocol, which could be designed to default to a base compatibility mode before switching to an enhanced resolution.  Many desktop LCD monitors for example support multiple resolutions. Do you have early access to the hardware that allows you to make a definitive statement?

[LocalHero1953]

2 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Agree that is most likely ... but it depends on the interface physical connections and protocol, which could be designed to default to a base compatibility mode before switching to an enhanced resolution.  Many desktop LCD monitors for example support multiple resolutions. Do you have early access to the hardware that allows you to make a definitive statement?

I agree. A new EVF would not work on the M240 because the latter uses a strange secondary, non-hotshoe connection, but there is no logical reason why a new EVF shouldn't be backwards compatible with the M10, TL2 etc, even though it might not work well - just like the latest flashes can work on the M10 using a simple centre point contact. Leica may just decide it's simpler to avoid backward compatibility, of course.

[ramarren]

17 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I agree. A new EVF would not work on the M240 because the latter uses a strange secondary, non-hotshoe connection, but there is no logical reason why a new EVF shouldn't be backwards compatible with the M10, TL2 etc, even though it might not work well - just like the latest flashes can work on the M10 using a simple centre point contact. Leica may just decide it's simpler to avoid backward compatibility, of course.

I think it's more likely that Leica (just like nearly every other manufacturer) would like to promote as much backward compatibility as possible (because they'd sell more new model EVFs that way...), but that there are times when hardware feature upgrades simply cannot remain backward compatible due to limitations of the older equipment. The video hardware of the body is the bottom line that determines whether a particular EVF can be made compatible (without even thinking of the mounting requirements), and in some cases it can be made compatible only at the expense of scaling its operation back to the original EVF spec, which nets no benefit.

This was certainly the case with at least one of the later Olympus EVFs (also made by Epson) which had double the pixels and scan rate: It was fully capable on some bodies and would work on older bodies only at the older bodies' original EVF output spec. 

G

[jaapv]

18 hours ago, Kim Dahl said:

I'm sorry to hear that the new evf does not work on TL2 - it would or will give TL2 a new life for use with M lenses.  Not that the old one can not be used but the Old evf is not near CL or SL.  
If Leica can make it work on the M10 I also think they could make it work with the TL2 ? 

Not. only interface, processing (power) is a limiting factor. When Epson/Olympus introduced the successor to the EVF2 -same interface-, Leica actually attempted to get it to work on the M240, but failed. because. the CPU was. not. powerful enough.

[Kim Dahl]

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5 hours ago, jaapv said:

Not. only interface, processing (power) is a limiting factor. When Epson/Olympus introduced the successor to the EVF2 -same interface-, Leica actually attempted to get it to work on the M240, but failed. because. the CPU was. not. powerful enough.

The TL2 has the Maestro II just like the M10 😊

[jaapv]

What processor will the M11 have? 

[Kim Dahl]

My guess will be Mestro III but I do not know.

[lct]

If the next Visoflex is compatible with the current M10 i don't see clearly why it would not be compatible with the TL2 given that both TL2 and M10 share the current Visoflex themselves. I have no experience with either camera though.

[dkCambridgeshire]

https://www.macfilos.com/2022/01/06/frankenflex-ugly-as-sin-but-a-great-view-no-doubt/

[dkCambridgeshire]

On 12/27/2021 at 3:07 AM, dkCambridgeshire said:

Add on EVFs only work on the cameras which  were originally designed to use the specific EVF  ... Leica's EVFs were designed by Epson. The M11 EVF when available will not work on the TL2 . The M11 Viso when available will be years ahead of the original Leica T Viso 020. 

Maybe the new Viso will work on the TL2 if Leica provide the firmware? 

[LocalHero1953]

Resurrecting this thread, at least with the original question.

Does anyone see the M11 as an option to replace their CL?
At least it now has modern metering, an electronic shutter, lighter weight, and a lower profile EVF. 
And you don't need to put a big lens on it - with a 50mm, you can crop down to an equivalent 90mm at 18Mp.

Leica CL + Summilux-TL 35 = 831g
Leica M11 + Apo-Summicron-M 50 = 830g

Edited January 14, 2022 by LocalHero1953

[lct]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Resurrecting this thread, at least with the original question.

Does anyone see the M11 as an option to replace their CL?
At least it now has modern metering, an electronic shutter, lighter weight, and a lower profile EVF. 
And you don't need to put a big lens on it - with a 50mm, you can crop down to an equivalent 90mm at 18Mp.

Leica CL + Summilux-TL 35 = 831g
Leica M11 + Apo-Summicron-M 50 = 830g

With black outs after each shot in Visoflex mode? Thanks no thanks i could hardly do anything with that (once more) sluggish camera but using it in RF mode and trying to downsize its useless (for me) 60MP.  

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Resurrecting this thread, at least with the original question.

Does anyone see the M11 as an option to replace their CL?
At least it now has modern metering, an electronic shutter, lighter weight, and a lower profile EVF. 
And you don't need to put a big lens on it - with a 50mm, you can crop down to an equivalent 90mm at 18Mp.

Leica CL + Summilux-TL 35 = 831g
Leica M11 + Apo-Summicron-M 50 = 830g

Not really, those cameras are so different -and differently priced- that replacement is a misnomer. If I were to buy am M11 - which not - it would not productive to sell the CL.

[LocalHero1953]

I use my CL for travel and social/family stuff, so size and weight are the main reason for the comparison. On those grounds at least it is worth a look. 

I can foresee Leica replacing the OVF/RF in the M11 with an EVF, but with just a plain dumb M mount it would just be a lost opportunity.

The nod towards modernisation in the M11, however clumsy the shutter implantation is at the moment, does make me wonder if they have some interesting ideas for a few years time. 

[ynp]

4 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Does anyone see the M11 as an option to replace their CL?

No. For me my 55-135 is important. 
Only a lightweight SL3 body with the 60 mpx M11 sensor will make me think of a replacement ( if there is no CL2). 

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I use my CL for travel and social/family stuff, so size and weight are the main reason for the comparison. On those grounds at least it is worth a look. 

I can foresee Leica replacing the OVF/RF in the M11 with an EVF, but with just a plain dumb M mount it would just be a lost opportunity.

The nod towards modernisation in the M11, however clumsy the shutter implantation is at the moment, does make me wonder if they have some interesting ideas for a few years time. 

Still, you would be missing light and/or compact zooms for that purpose. What would you use? The 35-70 R? A bunch of M lenses?

[LocalHero1953]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

Still, you would be missing light and/or compact zooms for that purpose. What would you use? The 35-70 R? A bunch of M lenses?

For narrow-range zooms you just rely on cropping from 60Mp, just like the Q2.
60mm is as long as I go on the CL, but I do use the wide end of the 11-23 zoom.

I'm not arguing because I'm convinced, I'm just testing the M11 against features I could live with and features that cross red lines.
And I'm curious about other people's own views of the same.

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Hallo,

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[Marac]

My personal opinion is that the CL is an AF small package that packs a punch and can nicely impliment M lenses without too much agro.

An M camera, to me, is the simplicity of use and rangefinder focussing system that has made it a legendary camera. I stopped at the M9/M9M. For me it is more about a manual camera with optics rather than EVF and rear screen focus. M11 certainly looks like they are chasing rainbows with 60mp and everything being geared towards intraweb friendliness with USB-C and wi-fi etc etc these are not reasons I bought an M if I'm honest.

Anyway, the original question, can it replace the CL? No, & neither can my M9 but I enjoy both for their differences. If I want an all singing all dancing Leica I would not choose an M, I would opt for the SL2 or 2s for modern conveniences.

We have a choice, this is what makes it a great time to be alive, enjoy & have no regrets.