Do we really need the SL APO Primes?

[chris_tribble]

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I face a dilemma.  I love the SL 24-90 and 90-280 on the SL2 and have been using them for personal and professional projects since the moment I got them.  They're earning their living.

However, I have also bought the APO SL 35 and APO SL 75.  The idea of the 75 was that it would give me a unique portrait lens, and the 35 would be a walk-about option when i didn't want the bulk / weight of th zoom.  HOWEVER, I've not used either of them for any serious work since I got them.  OK, portraiture hasn't been an option during the pandemic, but I could have used the 35 more for personal things.  The problem is that if I want a prime at this focal length I still have the M10, and it's such a good small package.  Why bother with more weight when it's mainly a matter of AF and IS, when neither of these are an issue.  The 75 may be another matter, as I know that at some point I will need AF and IS for the kinds of portraiture I like to do.  But is it possible that the 24-90 would be more than good enough?

I'd be interested in hearing what others have experienced in their use of SL primes, and whether they really really think they're worth the sunk cost.

Thank you for your thoughts.

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[Stuart Richardson]

I think the question is "do I really need the SL APO primes", and it sounds like the answer is no. When I first got the Panasonic S1, I tried the 24-90mm zoom and while I was impressed with its center sharpness, I did not like the performance at the edges. I photograph a lot of landscapes at infinity, where even edge to edge performance is very visible. I found that when I took pictures with the zoom, landscapes I had hoped would be sharp were not, and when I used prime lenses at optimal apertures, they were. For my kind of work prime lenses with even edge to edge performance was more important the the versatility of a zoom, which is not important to me at all, in most cases. I bought the 50mm APO Summicron and I have been extremely happy with it. Looking at my Lightroom catalog, about 60% of all my SL2 photos are with that lens. The second most are the 24mm Sigma Contemporary and the 35mm 1.4 ASPH M lens. About 5% were shot with a zoom (my only one is the 30-90mm S zoom).

There is no value judgement...it is just about how you photograph and what you want to do. The SL Summicrons are certainly better technically at their respective focal lengths, while the zooms are unarguably more flexible. For kinds of photography where absolutely even edge to edge sharpness or the extra light gathering and compactness are not important, then the zooms are a more flexible and convenient choice.

[LeicaR10]

Chris_Tribble,   I did the same as you when I transitioned from the decade of using the most excellent S system and now to SL and M systems.  I found the SL zooms to work exceptionally well.  As I have gone into semi-retirement with my landscape photography profession, I tried the SL primes for a little while, but found the SL zooms were nearly as good or in a few cases, better than the primes.  Since I don't have my Sherpa assistants anymore to carry my gear in challenging terrain, the M and SL systems work for me.  I agree with Stuart's post as well.  The only SL prime I keep is the exceptional superb SL 50 Summilux.  I use it for portraits and landscapes and strictly for its rendering.  I found it to be a cross between a M 50 Noctilux and 50 Apo Cron.  The shallow DOF and unique rendering make it ideal for my style of portraits.  At higher f/stops the SL 50 Lux is superb for landscapes due to its edge to edge resolution.   r/ Mark   

Edited August 21, 2021 by LeicaR10

[Jon Warwick]

I owned an SL2 + SL 50 APO before moving to medium format digital.

Is the 24-90 more than good enough? I never tried the zoom, because I’ve always been a prime lens user, but in this situation I’d personally ask myself ….

- how big is my printed output because the “more perfect” primes will show their benefits in terms of edge sharpness more at larger print sizes (especially for subject matter like landscapes). If not relevant, then I’d think the zoom is good enough for my use. 
- do you see relevance from owning the “more perfect” primes for higher megapixel cameras going forward? Again, if size of printed output will always be contained, it’d be less relevant for me.
- for an identical portrait, how do you find the rendering between the zoom and SL 75 APO? This (to me) would be key thing I’d examine, and is clearly completely subjective. I used to find the SL 50 APO almost too sharp (mainly in terms of acuity) for how I like portraits to look. It also could be that it wasn’t just the SL APO lens, but also how it specifically pairs with the 47mp resolution that made me think “this is just too much” to achieve the more graceful look that i prefer for portraits. Clearly a completely personal view, and others may have very different opinions here. Even for me, I know it is not as simple as it being the high 40+mp + “modern lens” that I’m responding to here, because I’ve played with files from the M 10 Monochrom + M 75 Noctilux that I thought landed beautifully in terms of how I prefer portraits to gracefully render ….

Edited August 21, 2021 by Jon Warwick

[chris_tribble]

7 minutes ago, Jon Warwick said:

- for an identical portrait, how do you find the rendering between the zoom and SL 75 APO? This (to me) would be key thing I’d examine, and is clearly completely subjective. I used to find the SL 50 APO almost too sharp (mainly in terms of acuity) for how I like portraits to look. It also could be that it wasn’t just the SL APO lens, but also how it specifically pairs with the 47mp resolution that made me think “this is just too much” to achieve the more graceful look that i prefer for portraits. Clearly a completely personal view, and others may have very different opinions here. Even for me, I know it is not as simple as it being the high 40+mp + “modern lens” that I’m responding to here, because I’ve played with files from the M 10 Monochrom + M 75 Noctilux that I thought landed beautifully in terms of how I prefer portraits to gracefully render ….

Thanks to all for responses.  Also thanks, Jon, for the comment above.  I've not been able to do this yet - but it's clearly something I need to do.  I used to love using the Canon 85 1.2 L on the Canon and hope that the APO 75 will give comparable results.  Time will tell.

[hansvons]

I'm in your boat, Chris. Except, I didn't purchase the planned APO 50mm SL because I figured quickly that the 24-90 does everything I need. I do landscapes, and I do people, 98% for digital media. I'm a fast photographer, almost working in a hurry. I rely heavily on the moment, which I create or at least take part in. I know that moments go for good. Thus, I need a fast camera and lens combo that is reliable in capturing these precious moments. With the SL2-S and the 24-90, the keeper rate is hardly determined by the camera's and lens' shortcomings. Precisely what I want.

Apparently, your APO primes are not upping your game nor motivate you to go the extra mile. That's what the 24-90 does. It makes you go out and shoot. Perhaps they are too similar to the 24-90 in their expression? The extra one or two stops are not needed in your real-world applications? 

I would let them go. And when you feel an itch for a prime, I'd check what my preferred focal length is (I'm a fifty guy) and get a lens that has a character you can relate to, which motivates you to go out and shoot more and better, which gives your work an extra edge. 

I inherited a Summicron 50mm R lens that I begin to like. It's vastly different from the 24-90 at 50mm, almost night and day, making it attractive despite its technical flaws. Or I might get the 50mm Summilux SL at some point. Or I don't because the 24-90 is so good. The Summicron 50mm SL's expression, however, is too close to the 24-90 for me and not on my bucket list.

[didier]

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I think you ask yourself the question because you have the M10 as a smaller / lighter / high quality alternative. Otherwise, the SL with a prime would be more interesting maybe ?

I am of course in a different situation as an amateur. I bought the lux 50 SL which I love (environmental portraits), and the 90-280 for reach. I use them for color with my SL.
All the rest is with my M10M.

[Fang]

I find that I do not need prime lens with the SL.  The 24-90 and 90-280 is enough for my travels and its a tack sharp on the position of the image I need to focus on with the joy stick.  While with my rangefinder M system I have to use prime lens since the area I wish to focus maybe off centre and the prime lens showhow compensate for the focus.

[Jeff S]

I have the 24-90, 90-280 and SL75.  The zooms suffice for most all work with the SL2, with the 75 providing a more compact option if inclement weather makes M use problematic.  I also never bonded with 75mm M frame lines, so the SL75 offers an alternative prime experience.  Frankly, though, it has been sitting mostly idle since purchase, but that’s primarily  attributable to lack of shooting in general due to the pandemic and other family matters. The SL75 is more of a bonus than a need, more related to handling and ergonomics than IQ, as the zooms generally suffice for my print quality requirements. The M10 and M10 Monochrom remain my primary platforms for prime lens use from 28 to 50mm.

Jeff

 

 

[chris_tribble]

25 minutes ago, Fang said:

I find that I do not need prime lens with the SL.  The 24-90 and 90-280 is enough for my travels and its a tack sharp on the position of the image I need to focus on with the joy stick.  While with my rangefinder M system I have to use prime lens since the area I wish to focus maybe off centre and the prime lens showhow compensate for the focus.

I know what you mean.  It maybe that the 35 APO is the step too far.  I know that it's a lovely lens, and I know that the MTF performance is stellar - but I've not bonded with it yet - partially because I've got 40 years of M experience with that focal length..  However - it's early days in the relationship so I won't jump ship yet 🙂

[Photoworks]

I have rented the 90-280 a few times, it is a cool lens but I really shoot at that focal.

In studio work I use mostly the 24-90 at F11. that is my main work horse.

I have the 35-50-75 SL summicron. and to be frank they don't get much use. Like you I have an M10 camera and for personal work I would use that.

Occasionally I use two SL2 on a job. one with 24-90 and the other the Lux-M 50 for more moody shots.

on some portrait shoots I don't use any zoom, Will pick up the SL75 and Nocti 50.

As you can see I have four 50mm lenses and the SL50 is the one I will pickup less and less.

[didier]

All that said, the SL primes are nothing short from amazing.

My Leica dealer rent me a SL75 for a few days and I loved the output !

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[LocalHero1953]

Chris, for the last couple of weeks I have been photographing rehearsals of a play, indoors, under fluorescent lighting, with the SL2-S and both the 24-90 and 90-280 zooms - mainly the latter, which of course is an APO designation. Having got almost all of what was needed for immediate publicity shots, last night I took the 90SL to try something different. After downloading them I was immediately struck by the striking colour and sharpness. I thought this might be the APO characteristics until I remembered that I had mostly been using the 90-280. I looked for comparative shots taken with each lens. In the end I concluded the main difference was the ability to shoot at lower ISO (generally 2 stops), resulting in lower noise and greater inherent detail/sharpness.

All shots at identical 100% crop, noise reduction, sharpening, clarity and saturation all zeroed, identical WB and colour adjustments, matching image brightness as best I could. All taken at 1/160, 90mm focal length.

Click on the images to see the full detail at this scale.

First the Apo V-E 90-280SL, f/3.4, ISO2000

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Then the V-E 24-90SL at f/4, ISO 2500

Edited August 21, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[LocalHero1953]

And last the Apo 90SL, f/2, ISO 800

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I do quite a bit of indoor, ambient light photography of people, so I find the primes well worth it to gain the extra clarity and detail that you get from the extra stops and lower ISO. (FWIW I have the 75SL and 35SL as well).

Edited August 21, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Jeff S]

She seems more stunned by the SL90.

Jeff

[LocalHero1953]

1 minute ago, Jeff S said:

She seems more stunned by the SL90.

Jeff

I think she saw the 90-280 as a survival from my mid-life crisis.

[T25UFO]

For me, this is not a difficult decision.  Both SL 35mm and SL 75mm are state of the art, but you're a professional photographer so they have to earn their keep.  If they don't, then they have to go, and you have the M system for personal work.

I have never seen complaints about image quality with the SL zooms; the only issue (for some) appears to be size/weight, but I'm assuming you're fine with that.  Which just leaves the question of what is the most suitable lens for portraiture?  I'm with @LeicaR10 on this and would go for the SL 50mm Summilux.  Once again, the only downside is size/weight but if you're happy with the zooms, then that shouldn't bother you.

So my solution would be to trade the 35mm and 75mm for the SL 50mm Summilux.

[Andrew Gough]

You need to set your 35mm Summicron to F8 and start shooting...

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Andrew Gough]

 

It is way beyond the very good 24-90mm

 

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Edited August 21, 2021 by Andrew Gough

[Andrew Gough]

Here is the 75mm Summicron SL

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