Buy a M6/M7 – What should be considered?

[matt.tyler]

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Hi,

What should I look for when buying an M6/M7?

I have one in mind that I will look at shortly.

Supposedly the camera has been in the bag in the closet (dry and dark) for the last 15-20 years and has only been used 1x.

Thanks

[Helge]

Not real good, since the mechanics suffer during that long still standing phase by lubricants that start curing to a resin-like substance.

So a service at Leica should be considered, also for the price you‘ll pay.

I personally would go with the M6, since I would not like the automatic exposure, however this a personal decision.

There are quiet some differences besides that (I.e. viewfinder) for which some more educated experts should be around here.

[earleygallery]

My immediate thoughts are fungus and battery leaks (if fitted). So, check the battery compartment and check the finder (and any lenses) for signs of fungus.

I'm not one for suggesting an immediate CLA for a used camera, more if it ain't broke don't fix it, but if it really has sat unused for that long I'd probably get it serviced. Factor that into the price.

[AndreasG]

Not to forget to check the shutter curtains for burned-in holes.

[spydrxx]

Additionally, I'd check for certain things which might pertain to any older rangefinder camera like the condition of the body covering and the metal finish - such as scratches. Is the viewfinder clear and free of haze, and do the images align properly. Are there any dents?. Do the lugs for a strap show signs of wear?

[matt.tyler]

Thanks for the tips...that helps me a lot to be able to judge the part a little better. 🙏

[Danner]

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A recent CLA with corresponds paperwork is a good thing.

[colint544]

For what it's worth, a friend of mine since childhood died in January this year. His wife was going through his things, and insisted that I have his Canon New F-1, that he owned since he was 17, as a keepsake, a reminder of him. 

The camera came to me a few weeks ago. It had been in a drawer since 1999. I put a battery in it, and it works perfectly. All speeds on time, smooth film advance, meter and viewfinder light all just fine. Even the foam bumper that cushions the mirror when it flips up, is like new.

On the flip side, I bought a Leica M2 back in 2012, from Red Dot Cameras. The camera was mint, but the controls were stiff, gummed up, and the viewfinder dim. I assumed it hadn't been used in a long time, and a CLA brought it back to smooth and reliable operation.

I say all this this only to illustrate that it's not always the case that everything always needs a CLA. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. You just have to use your judgement when you examine a camera.

Hope it works out for you.

[andrew01]

Both M6 and 7 have a semi-spot meter that measures light reflected from a 12mm circle painted on the shutter.  In my opinion, this type of meter is poorly suited to automatic exposure.  You would need to find the part of the scene you want to meter and then use the AE lock.  I think it is a  simpler workflow to use manual mode with a semi-spot meter.  For this reason I would choose the M6 over the M7.  

Edited August 13, 2021 by andrew01

[jukka]

On 8/13/2021 at 7:40 PM, andrew01 said:

 You would need to find the part of the scene you want to meter and then use the AE lock.  I think it is a  simpler workflow to use manual mode with a semi-spot meter.  

So, help me understand this, please. With an M6 you use the meter to meter different lights in the scene, and then adjust the shutter speed accordingly, right? With an M7 AE you can do the same (the shutter speeds are displayed in the viewfinder) with the exception that using the AE lock, you don't have to fiddle around with the shutter speed dial. This, in my view, at least, is the far more efficient and faster way to do the same exact procedure. Did I misunderstand something here?

ps. In an M7 the AE lock is super intuitively integrated into the shutter button unlike the awkward style of voigtlanders and the zeis ikon. 

Edited August 15, 2021 by jukka

[andrew01]

4 hours ago, jukka said:

So, help me understand this, please. With an M6 you use the meter to meter different lights in the scene, and then adjust the shutter speed accordingly, right? With an M7 AE you can do the same (the shutter speeds are displayed in the viewfinder) with the exception that using the AE lock, you don't have to fiddle around with the shutter speed dial. This, in my view, at least, is the far more efficient and faster way to do the same exact procedure. Did I misunderstand something here?

ps. In an M7 the AE lock is super intuitively integrated into the shutter button unlike the awkward style of voigtlanders and the zeis ikon. 

It’s personal preference, use whatever you like.

 I find it easier to use manual mode with semi spot metering because you don’t always want to assign the metered area to middle gray.  I leave the shutter speed on the approximately correct speed for the lighting and tweak the aperture for the exposure I want in the metered area and then recompose and shoot.

[jukka]

5 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

It’s personal preference, use whatever you like.

Sure. I am just trying to understand your reasoning here. 

 

7 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

 I leave the shutter speed on the approximately correct speed for the lighting and tweak the aperture for the exposure I want in the metered area and then recompose and shoot.

So, in effect you tend to use a kind of shutter priority method, which,  if I'm honest, doesn't sound simple at all. In any case, the AE mode in the M7 is aperture priority. Maybe due to this misunderstanding you would recommend the M6 over the M7? The actual benefit of using aperture priority is that you maintain creative control over depth of field. It's quite nice, you should try it sometimes – just saying. 

[TomB_tx]

I used the "semi-spot meter / auto shutter" method for years with my R4, and also use it with my Sony A7 (in spot mode) with R lenses: Meter a spot of the scene that should equate to a grey card brightness and lock exposure, then re-frame and shoot. I've found it works very well. The A7 also adjusts the finder live view based on the spot metered, so you preview the effect.

[MarkP]

22 hours ago, andrew01 said:

you don’t always want to assign the metered area to middle gray.

You don't have to.  One can quickly scan the subject matter and lock the exposure on whatever one wants, not necessarily middle grey.  

I've used my aperture priority cameras in either manual or 'semi-automatic' for years depending on the situation.  Move the centre of the image around the scene 'till you get the shutter speed you want, lock it in, recompose and shoot - fast and easy. Can hold it locked and make adjustments to the aperture also if I want. 

I love my M7. 

[Martin B]

I own both cameras and use both of them equally well. I started off with the M6 and purchased a year later the M7 because I found a good deal for it and wanted to diversify a bit in my Leica camera gear. I dedicate the M6 for B&W film photography, the M7 to color negative and slide film. 

Advantages of the M7 over the M6:

+ Lock shutter release avoids accidental release inside camera bag (one thing I don't like with the M6)
+ Better rangefinder patch which mostly avoids rangefinder patch flare (which I encounter more often with my M6)
+ Aperture priority automatic camera mode (which I hardly ever use but good to have if needed for faster shooting needs)
+ Repair needs: The M7 is newer and repair parts can be likely obtained more easily. I read that it is now sometimes difficult to have the M6 meter repaired due to missing and no longer available repair parts. 

Cons of the M7 compared to the M6:

- Automatic film speed reader makes it cumbersome/impossible to use the M7 with IR film (only use my M6 here)
- Film speed reader keeps the film cartridge more locked inside the body - it doesn't as easily come out after the film rewind. 
- More LED displays in the viewfinder add more confusion than help IMO. What was the blinking dot meaning again? I always forget!
- The exposure dial goes now in opposite direction than the non-TTL M6 camera (but same direction as in the newer TTL-based M6). Can be confusing when using non-TTL M6 and M7 cameras in parallel. I read the new dial direction is in line with aperture ring rotation of Leica lenses. Really? I never seen a connection here in my practical usage ever. 
- More silver oxide batteries needed in the M7.
- M7 needs battery power to function (M6 can handle at two shutter speeds without). 

 

The M7 has an electronic shutter whereas the M6 shutter is fully mechanical. Some claim this to be a disadvantage of the M7, but I never had an issue with it nor did I see a practical difference. Therefore I add this difference as a neutral point for me in this list. Another neutral point for me is the weight difference between both cameras. Not really an issue for me. 

Both the M6 and M7 are IMO currently severely overpriced in the used camera markets. I have seen M6 prices getting close to a brand new Leica MA. 

Which camera do I use more often in the past 6 years after purchase? The M6 is the winner here. I also have the M3 and a IIIc camera. The M6 is my most used and probably my favorite M film camera to this date. 

Edited August 16, 2021 by Martin B

[Paul Verrips]

3 hours ago, Martin B said:

Cons of the M7 compared to the M6:
- M7 needs battery power to function (M6 can handle at two shutter speeds without). 

 

The M7 electronic shutter WILL NOT work without battery power,

BUT 1/60 + 1/125 shutter speed WILL work without battery power.

 

Whatever you choose, spend money for a CLA, my personal opinion is that the M7 is undervalued by the average Leica M addict.

I prefer the M7 towards the M6.

But it's all in the eye of the beholder.

[andrew01]

On 8/15/2021 at 1:09 PM, jukka said:

Sure. I am just trying to understand your reasoning here. 

 

So, in effect you tend to use a kind of shutter priority method, which,  if I'm honest, doesn't sound simple at all. In any case, the AE mode in the M7 is aperture priority. Maybe due to this misunderstanding you would recommend the M6 over the M7? The actual benefit of using aperture priority is that you maintain creative control over depth of field. It's quite nice, you should try it sometimes – just saying. 

 

Of the 30 odd film cameras I own, about a third of them have aperture priority AE.  For a broad centre weighted meter pattern I am fine shooting this way, but for a semi spot meter like the Leica I prefer to work in manual.  I find that using AE lock and exposure compensation dials is slower than just dialing in the exposure in manual on many cameras.  Sometimes with Ae cameras I have the bad habit of treating the camera as a point and shoot.

I find that using manual mode forces me to put more thought into exactly what I am metering.  The M6 meter pattern is unforgiving in my experience.  If you accidentally have the spot over a highlight or shadow the exposure will be incorrect.  I usually try to guess the exposure from the lighting conditions first and make depth of field decisions by choosing a faster speed if I want shallower depth of field.  There are usually only 3-4 plausible hand-held exposure combinations for a given lighting situation so the creative control aspect is often overstated in my opinion.  

The above may sound complicated but I have found that I am not tweaking the exposure much in a given shooting session.  The first guess exposure from sunny 16 is usually about right and the meter just gives confirmation.  I find the learning experience rewarding.

The M cameras inspire me to work in a more traditional way, and there is nothing quite like the clockwork precision of the purely mechanical models.

It would be fun to try an M7, but there is no way I am going to buy one at the prices they sell for now.

[jukka]

5 hours ago, andrew01 said:

The M cameras inspire me to work in a more traditional way, and there is nothing quite like the clockwork precision of the purely mechanical models.

Look, I am not trying to be polemic here, but I am having difficulties following your somewhat conflicting train of thought. It feels though that the above quote is the actual reason you prefer the M6, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. It's just that in these discussions "M7 versus other film Leicas" you often feel like you're talking with internet memes.

It would be refreshing sometimes to hear a bit of honesty, as in:  "Instead of picking the best tool, I like to speak of myself as a fully mechanical Leica user, hence I don't like the M7".

Well, I'm half kidding here of course  If you ever happen to be in Helsinki, drop me a line, I will buy you a beer, we can chitchat, compare notes, and I'll let you try for yourself how intuitive (but not a point and shoot) the AE mode in the M7 is.

Edited August 17, 2021 by jukka

[andrew01]

For sure my preference for the M6 is a combination of enjoying the traditional mechanical M camera experience and appreciating the simplicity of the fast and intuitive manual metering mode. 

No doubt I would also enjoy using an M7, but I can’t justify another M camera purchase at current prices.

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[analog-digital]

Am 12.8.2021 um 13:38 schrieb matt.tyler:

Hi,

What should I look for when buying an M6/M7?

I have one in mind that I will look at shortly.

Supposedly the camera has been in the bag in the closet (dry and dark) for the last 15-20 years and has only been used 1x.

Thanks

The M6 is hype and way too expensive. M7 is also increasingly sought after. Why not an MP?