Film picker won’t extract leader

[Steve Ricoh]

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I’ve been using a Kaiser film picker and no matter how many times I cannot extract the leader from the 135 cassette. Whether it’s due to the electric drive/rewind of the F100 I’m not sure, but I can extract the film leader from an unused redundant film I sacrificed for experiment.
I’ve been fairly persistent trying to retrieve the leader (from the roll of Tri-X) but I think there’s a problem now, either the film has torn or the leader has buckled, so I’ve stopped trying.
 

Two options remain; send the film to a lab and let them sort it, or get one of those film cassette opener things, eg the Ilford product: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/35mm-film-cassette-opener

But once the cap of the cassette is removed in the dark bag the sharp metal bits are an accident waiting to happen. 
 

Any suggestions? Eg wear gardening gloves? 

 

 

[david strachan]

You can open the cassette with an old fashion bottle opener.

Also try winding the film backwards, not tightening, then try the film picker.

If you want to put the film into a new cassette, as a sacrificial experimental loading film for example, you can get as many empty cassettes as you want from kiosk, or film labs.  Just tape your film to the remainder tongue. And then hand wind into the cassette...but not too far 😊

...

Edited August 2, 2021 by david strachan

[ianman]

 

58 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Two options remain; send the film to a lab and let them sort it, or get one of those film cassette opener things, eg the Ilford product: https://www.ilfordphoto.com/35mm-film-cassette-opener

But once the cap of the cassette is removed in the dark bag the sharp metal bits are an accident waiting to happen. 
 

Any suggestions? Eg wear gardening gloves? 

Third option and one I use often is to get a used piece of film, a previously cut leader or something, make it slightly wet and slide it into the canister. It will stick to the film inside and pull it out. It doesn't need to be dripping, just a few drops of water smeared over the surface does the trick.

Fourth option, which I have also used to carefully rip the canister appart with your fingers. It's quite easy but take care not to scratch the film, but even if you do it's likeley to be the leader that gets scratched anyway.

Try number 3 first though

 

[Steve Ricoh]

11 minutes ago, ianman said:

 

Third option and one I use often is to get a used piece of film, a previously cut leader or something, make it slightly wet and slide it into the canister. It will stick to the film inside and pull it out. It doesn't need to be dripping, just a few drops of water smeared over the surface does the trick.

Fourth option, which I have also used to carefully rip the canister appart with your fingers. It's quite easy but take care not to scratch the film, but even if you do it's likeley to be the leader that gets scratched anyway.

Try number 3 first though

 

Thanks Ian, I’ve tried option 3 but the hidden leader isn't coming out to play. 
The fourth option, or a modified version ie using a bottle opener, is looking the only way now. Might wear gloves, mind you; although I won’t be able to see the blood, I’ll know when I’ve cut myself. (I tried levering the cap off on another sacrificial roll in daylight and somehow managed to cut my thumb).

[ianman]

11 minutes ago, Steve Ricoh said:

Thanks Ian, I’ve tried option 3 but the hidden leader isn't coming out to play. 

Did you try as you would with the extractor gadget? Before inserting wind the film clockwise, then insert the damp piece of film holding the canister so the film inside can't turn.

Re opening the canister, I don't think you should be afraid of trying your version or mine (cheaper and quicker  ). Just pull the mouth apart until you can get the tips of your fingers in and it peels apart like an orange.

Of course if you are not in any particular hurry there's nowt wrong with sending it off to a lab if you feel more comfortable

[Pyrogallol]

On the occasions that I don’t use a Leitz reloadable cassette I just pull the mouth of the cassette open with my thumb, bend the bottom end off and take the spool out.

[250swb]

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If it's about a partially exposed film that has accidentally been wound in the cassette I've tried extractor gadgets and found they somehow work the first time and then never again. But if it's just getting an exposed film out of a cassette to process it the ancient tried and tested technique is to use a bottle opener, just flip one end off. You don't want to wind the film back through the light trap anyway if it can be avoided.

Edited August 2, 2021 by 250swb

[Steve Ricoh]

After much perseverance I have extracted the leader. The technique used was to inset the long tongue through the felt and then, and only then, rotate the film CW until a ‘click’ is heard. Immediately on hearing the click apply finger pressure to the spindle to prevent the film from moving, then inset the second tongue and finally retract the tool from the cassette with the film leader exposed.

[M.Hilo]

I assume the film was not exposed? Because if it was you could have simply gone in the dark, open the cassette, take the film out and put it on a reel of a developing tank, put the reel inside the tank, close the tank . . .

If the film was not exposed, you could have used an old Ilford cassette to reload this film into after breaking open the cassette . . The sides of an used Ilford cassette come off. You only need to take one side off, lead the film through the slot and close the cassette . . .

Since you may have damaged the opening I would not use this film for your daughter's wedding . . .

 

[jpattison]

Here (in the first two minutes) is how to do it with a Kaiser extractor (similar to the Ilford version)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBKG_34M6wE

He shows other methods as well.

John

 

[Herr Barnack]

18 hours ago, Steve Ricoh said:

After much perseverance I have extracted the leader. The technique used was to inset the long tongue through the felt and then, and only then, rotate the film CW until a ‘click’ is heard. Immediately on hearing the click apply finger pressure to the spindle to prevent the film from moving, then inset the second tongue and finally retract the tool from the cassette with the film leader exposed.

When all else fails, read and follow the directions.  😎

[Steve Ricoh]

58 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

When all else fails, read and follow the directions.  😎

I thought I did. The instructions that came with the Ksiser are, quite honest, as clear as mud!

The revised method I successfully employed was seen on a video for an AP picker.

Might be helpful to others:

 

[Chuck Albertson]

I'm not sure they still make it, but I've always used a length of Dymo label tape (stiff plastic) for this purpose. Peel off an inch or so of the backing, feed it into the light trap and re-wind the film until the tape sticks on to it, then pull the film leader out.

[jpattison]

14 hours ago, Chuck Albertson said:

I'm not sure they still make it, but I've always used a length of Dymo label tape (stiff plastic) for this purpose. Peel off an inch or so of the backing, feed it into the light trap and re-wind the film until the tape sticks on to it, then pull the film leader out.

A similar method using double sided tape is shown (second item) on this video I linked above.... 

 

John

Edited August 4, 2021 by jpattison
typo

[giannis]

On 8/2/2021 at 11:20 AM, Steve Ricoh said:

Any suggestions? Eg wear gardening gloves? 

 

For future reference: The best option is leaving the leader out when rewinding (the F100 probably has an option for that check the manual). Then not only can you retrieve the film, but you can trim the leader and load the tip of it until it catches onto the reel, so you don't have to do it in the dark. Two birds with one stone.

 

What to do now: Bottle opener. Yes the aluminium can be sharp but it's not that sharp to be a danger unless you try to make it one. You don't need the special opener, most bottle openers work fine with a bit of extra force, so it doesn't slip. Alternatively you can stick the tip of a knife (or maybe a fork could work too) through the felt tip slit, and twist it, so you open it from there, peeling apart the canister.

[TomB_tx]

I've processed film for over 50 years, and never tried extracting the leader. Except for the older un-crimped cassettes where an end could be popped off by rapping the end of the spool on the counter, I've always used a bottle opener to remove and end cap. (Except, of course for IXMOO and FILCA.)

[M.Hilo]

6 hours ago, TomB_tx said:

I've processed film for over 50 years, and never tried extracting the leader. Except for the older un-crimped cassettes where an end could be popped off by rapping the end of the spool on the counter, I've always used a bottle opener to remove and end cap. (Except, of course for IXMOO and FILCA.)

Like you Tom, I have developped film for almost that many years and I still do. At one point in the eighties (probably) I switched from Tri-X 400 to T-Max 400 that I use(d) next to Ilford FP4 125. Possibly the Tri-x cassettes were more difficult to open.

I always wind the exposed film all the way in and simply open the cassettes by ripping open the slot using my fingers. You just need to be a little slow in the beginning, that's all. You start by breaking open the slot where the film leads through, you don't start with the side caps . . . these will just come off when you tear open the soft metal of the cassette.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by M.Hilo

[Steve Ricoh]

On 8/5/2021 at 4:34 PM, giannis said:

For future reference: The best option is leaving the leader out when rewinding (the F100 probably has an option for that check the manual). 

If the F100 does I have not seen it mentioned in the instructions.
(I’m almost 100% certain there isn’t an option to leave the leader out.)

[Steve Ricoh]

10 hours ago, M.Hilo said:

Like you Tom, I have developped film for almost that many years and I still do. At one point in the eighties (probably) I switched from Tri-X 400 to T-Max 400 that I use(d) next to Ilford FP4 125. Possibly the Tri-x cassettes were more difficult to open.

I always wind the exposed film all the way in and simply open the cassettes by ripping open the slot using my fingers. You just need to be a little slow in the beginning, that's all. You start by breaking open the slot where the film leads through, you don't start with the side caps . . . these will just come off when you tear open the soft metal of the cassette.

 

Thanks to all for the contributions to this thread. 
As an update, I did manage to extract the leader using the Kaiser ...eventually.

During the period of time messing around, without success, I picked up an AP film retriever. The AP was far easier to use and out came the tongue first attempt.

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[Danner]

On 8/5/2021 at 10:34 AM, giannis said:

For future reference: The best option is leaving the leader out when rewinding (the F100 probably has an option for that check the manual). Then not only can you retrieve the film, but you can trim the leader and load the tip of it until it catches onto the reel, so you don't have to do it in the dark. Two birds with one stone.

 

 

Leader-out was an option back in the day, but it was a modification done by Nikon Service.