On the fence about buying the 50 SL Summilux…..

[IkarusJohn]

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Umm, strong reaction, don’t you think?  I wasn’t aware I was responding to you, but … go ahead …

[sillbeers15]

I think in many instances, 'how much' of the bokeh and the way the particular lens renders the 'bokeh falloff' gets very personal.

I also agree that 'too often' and 'too much' makes bokeh losses it's shine.

Let's not forget the intention of the bokeh is to draw attention to the subject and not get distracted by the background (I hope this is the general rule and no objections by anyone to that?).

More often than not when a portrait is created with the right amount of light (soft or hard / single or multiple source at various intensity) together with the application of bokeh or the lack of it (often in a studio), an art piece is created through the lens just as an artist would paint a portrait. The light source or the amount determines the mode of the pics than merely illuminate the subject. Enhanced light through OCF (off camera flashes) isn't a popular topic in this forum that I've observed. Nevertheless the creative element and artistic appeal has a much more impact on a photograph than bokeh in many instances. Also there is much more fun and challenges applying OCF that eventually gets paid off by the results in a good pic.

[trickness]

4 hours ago, IkarusJohn said:

Umm, strong reaction, don’t you think?  I wasn’t aware I was responding to you, but … go ahead …

Didn’t mean to offend, and thought we’re all sharing perspectives here, which of course may differ. Sorry if it came off that way.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

Enhanced light through OCF (off camera flashes) isn't a popular topic in this forum that I've observed. 

I think the reason is the lack of proper flash support from Leica. Last week I got a SF60, I purchased it only because I found it for a very good deal, and because TTL is useful, but it feels like a toy compared to a Godox V1.

[trickness]

4 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

I think in many instances, 'how much' of the bokeh and the way the particular lens renders the 'bokeh falloff' gets very personal.

I also agree that 'too often' and 'too much' makes bokeh losses it's shine.

Let's not forget the intention of the bokeh is to draw attention to the subject and not get distracted by the background (I hope this is the general rule and no objections by anyone to that?).

More often than not when a portrait is created with the right amount of light (soft or hard / single or multiple source at various intensity) together with the application of bokeh or the lack of it (often in a studio), an art piece is created through the lens just as an artist would paint a portrait. The light source or the amount determines the mode of the pics than merely illuminate the subject. Enhanced light through OCF (off camera flashes) isn't a popular topic in this forum that I've observed. Nevertheless the creative element and artistic appeal has a much more impact on a photograph than bokeh in many instances. Also there is much more fun and challenges applying OCF that eventually gets paid off by the results in a good pic.

I think there is sometimes too much bokeh focus on how many blades or how blobs or stars look, which is a minuscule consideration relative to the overall strength of the composition. I don’t care how great something looks when I try to focus if the composition & subject isn’t good, who really cares, you know? How many wide open shots of beer bottles can we look at?

All of these lenses we are discussing our outstanding performers, and I for one hope that I can somewhat live up to the capabilities of the tools I have chosen. It’s a lifelong endeavor!

[sillbeers15]

2 hours ago, Simone_DF said:

I think the reason is the lack of proper flash support from Leica. Last week I got a SF60, I purchased it only because I found it for a very good deal, and because TTL is useful, but it feels like a toy compared to a Godox V1.

I agree with you that Leica has a rather weak  3rd party flash maker support mainly due to the low volume of Leica cameras in the market. Rather than Leica placing resource to develop and manage an individual flash protocol, Leica should either take a position taken by XIID on sharing Nikon flash protocol (since the pin positions are common as Leica cameras) or share the same pin configuration and protocol with Panasonic S series cameras since both share the L-mount configuration. I honestly think Leica just has a poor business strategy. On the subject of SF60, it frustrates me as the flash overheats easily and shuts down as I have two units. For the same money, you can buy the more powerful Nissin MG10 (165kWs) just that you need to invest in one unit of SF-C1 Comander (remote trigger) to control it. The MG10 functions and feels very well built. So I use the MG10 as my main light and both SF60s as rim & back lights to support my OCF gear for my SL2 & M10R.

[sillbeers15]

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47 minutes ago, trickness said:

I think there is sometimes too much bokeh focus on how many blades or how blobs or stars look, which is a minuscule consideration relative to the overall strength of the composition. I don’t care how great something looks when I try to focus if the composition & subject isn’t good, who really cares, you know? How many wide open shots of beer bottles can we look at?

All of these lenses we are discussing our outstanding performers, and I for one hope that I can somewhat live up to the capabilities of the tools I have chosen. It’s a lifelong endeavor!

I have similar sentiments. Focus on taking the composition and lighting of the pics to the next level certainly is more rewarding than just considering bokeh alone. Enhanced lighting allows the photographer to actively drop the background exposure by 2 stops when controlled enhanced light can expose the subject correctly and it certainly draws viewers' attention to the subject of the pics more than just the effects of bokeh alone.

[Simone_DF]

4 hours ago, sillbeers15 said:

I agree with you that Leica has a rather weak  3rd party flash maker support mainly due to the low volume of Leica cameras in the market. 

I'm not so sure about that. The Godox V1 is available even for PENTAX! I don't believe Pentax sells more cameras than Leica. There may be some other reason we don't know.

Edited November 7, 2021 by Simone_DF

[T25UFO]

I had the SL 50mm Summilux as my only SL auto focus lens.  I eventually sold it because of size and weight, and bought the SL 75mm Summicron, which I still have.  The Summicron is a great lens, but when I look back at the photos I took with the Summilux, I do have some regrets.

Yes, they are quite different but there is something special with the Summilux and if you can accept the size and weight, then it’s the lens of choice.

[trickness]

6 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

I had the SL 50mm Summilux as my only SL auto focus lens.  I eventually sold it because of size and weight, and bought the SL 75mm Summicron, which I still have.  The Summicron is a great lens, but when I look back at the photos I took with the Summilux, I do have some regrets.

Yes, they are quite different but there is something special with the Summilux and if you can accept the size and weight, then it’s the lens of choice.

I think you can get much of the same character, if not the ultimate sharpness and of course auto focus, if you use the M Summilux 1.4 ASPH. That was my biggest challenge in deciding whether to get the SL Lux 50. It doesn’t matter how great the images might be if you don’t take the lens out of the house because it’s like a cannon…..

For studio use I’m sure it’s amazing, or anywhere where you don’t need to move quickly. I just don’t have that use case scenario in my shooting these days

Edited November 7, 2021 by trickness

[T25UFO]

6 minutes ago, trickness said:

I think you can get much of the same character, if not the ultimate sharpness and of course auto focus, if you use the M Summilux 1.4 ASPH. That was my biggest challenge in deciding whether to get the SL Lux 50. It doesn’t matter how great the images might be if you don’t take the lens out of the house because it’s like a cannon…..

For studio use I’m sure it’s amazing, or anywhere where you don’t need to move quickly. I just don’t have that use case scenario in my shooting these days

I would agree with that and the M lens has the added advantage of being usable on two systems.  I eventually bought the reissued F1.2 Noctilux for much the same reason.  Of course, it’s another completely different 50mm!

[trickness]

3 minutes ago, T25UFO said:

I would agree with that and the M lens has the added advantage of being usable on two systems.  I eventually bought the reissued F1.2 Noctilux for much the same reason.  Of course, it’s another completely different 50mm!

I actually made the decision that I was going to get the 1.0 Nocti, as I thought really good copies could be had for around six grand. Now that’s up to about 8500, too rich for my blood! But that 1.2 looks interesting too.

[sillbeers15]

8 hours ago, trickness said:

I actually made the decision that I was going to get the 1.0 Nocti, as I thought really good copies could be had for around six grand. Now that’s up to about 8500, too rich for my blood! But that 1.2 looks interesting too.

That is Leica poison. The 50mm Noctiluxs are full of character but never perfect. My .95 shows a pronounce CR although it is correctable in LR. The other M lens with the same design is the M21Lux. 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

I don't think the M 50'lux is at all like the SL version. There are significant differences in the sharpness wide open, evenness across the field of view, flare and focus fall off that they don't fell the same at all, to me. They're not even the same focal length (the M is slightly longer at around 52mm.). The SL50 Summilux is rather unique, in my view. Looking for a lighter version that draws the same way is futile. I have tried.

Gordon

[trickness]

1 hour ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

I don't think the M 50'lux is at all like the SL version. There are significant differences in the sharpness wide open, evenness across the field of view, flare and focus fall off that they don't fell the same at all, to me. They're not even the same focal length (the M is slightly longer at around 52mm.). The SL50 Summilux is rather unique, in my view. Looking for a lighter version that draws the same way is futile. I have tried.

Gordon

Of course the SL Lux is technically superior, sharper, etc - but they both do that dreamy, foggy thing wide open, yes? So siblings if not twins? 

All the SL prime glass is at a level above the M glass (excepting the 35APO & 75 Nocti possibly?). But if you don't want to carry around a cannon and can give up that extra 15-20% of performance, then the 50 M Lux gets you stylistically in the ballpark.....yes?

 

[IkarusJohn]

5 hours ago, trickness said:

Of course the SL Lux is technically superior, sharper, etc - but they both do that dreamy, foggy thing wide open, yes? So siblings if not twins? 

All the SL prime glass is at a level above the M glass (excepting the 35APO & 75 Nocti possibly?). But if you don't want to carry around a cannon and can give up that extra 15-20% of performance, then the 50 M Lux gets you stylistically in the ballpark.....yes?

 

Not really.  Not nitpicking, but there is a significant difference beyond the decade or so that separates them; and the fact that one was designed when Lothar Kolsch headed the design department, and the other is Peter Karbe's tour de force.

The M 50 Summilux had that thing off being slightly dreamy wide open with the creamy out of focus areas.  I would say it is closer to the 0.95 Noctilux, from 1.4 on.  Conversely, the Sl 50 Summilux has that peak of incredible sharpness, even wide open, and the fall off from super sharp to that dreamy bokeh is lovely (none of the harshness or weirdness you see in other fast lenses, like the 35 Summilux FLE).  The SL Summilux is also better across the frame, from memory.  The SL you can genuinely set the aperture for depth of field with no loss of sharpness until you hit diffraction at the top of the aperture.

Yep, they're both lovely lenses, but I wouldn't call them twins, really.

[trickness]

9 minutes ago, IkarusJohn said:

Not really.  Not nitpicking, but there is a significant difference beyond the decade or so that separates them; and the fact that one was designed when Lothar Kolsch headed the design department, and the other is Peter Karbe's tour de force.

The M 50 Summilux had that thing off being slightly dreamy wide open with the creamy out of focus areas.  I would say it is closer to the 0.95 Noctilux, from 1.4 on.  Conversely, the Sl 50 Summilux has that peak of incredible sharpness, even wide open, and the fall off from super sharp to that dreamy bokeh is lovely (none of the harshness or weirdness you see in other fast lenses, like the 35 Summilux FLE).  The SL Summilux is also better across the frame, from memory.  The SL you can genuinely set the aperture for depth of field with no loss of sharpness until you hit diffraction at the top of the aperture.

Yep, they're both lovely lenses, but I wouldn't call them twins, really.

It’s a shame it’s so huge. I’d love to get those optics but there’s no way it would work for street photography, or really any work where you have to be light on your feet. It does sound incredible 

[FlashGordonPhotography]

17 hours ago, trickness said:

It’s a shame it’s so huge. I’d love to get those optics but there’s no way it would work for street photography, or really any work where you have to be light on your feet. It does sound incredible 

That depends, I suppose. I took a 5 lens kit with a pair of S1R's (SL2 was released while I was on that trip). I thought I'd carry the 24-90 mostly but the SL50 'lux was by far my most used lens. I ended up carrying a 14-24 Sigma, the 50 'lux and 90 cron for about 80% of that trip and leaving the zooms locked in the hotel. I had two lenses in a small sling bag and a camera and lens on a sling strap. Walked many kilometers each day and had no problems.

Gordon

[trickness]

35 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

That depends, I suppose. I took a 5 lens kit with a pair of S1R's (SL2 was released while I was on that trip). I thought I'd carry the 24-90 mostly but the SL50 'lux was by far my most used lens. I ended up carrying a 14-24 Sigma, the 50 'lux and 90 cron for about 80% of that trip and leaving the zooms locked in the hotel. I had two lenses in a small sling bag and a camera and lens on a sling strap. Walked many kilometers each day and had no problems.

Gordon

Yeah for landscape or general travel it would work, but for street people get really uptight when you point a huge lens at them. I even get looks when I use the SL2 with the 5.6 Summaron M 28, whereas the Q2M they hardly notice.....

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Hallo,

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[T25UFO]

1 hour ago, trickness said:

Yeah for landscape or general travel it would work, but for street people get really uptight when you point a huge lens at them. I even get looks when I use the SL2 with the 5.6 Summaron M 28, whereas the Q2M they hardly notice.....

I’ve followed your Q2M street series in the image thread - some really excellent photos showcasing what this camera is good at.  I agree you wouldn’t get anything like the same results with a 50mm Summilux mounted on the SL2!  Horses for courses.