M4-P slow speeds inconsistencies

[Lawrence_L]

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Hi. I just bought a Leica M4-P as my first step into the world of Leica. I'm exicted.

The camera is in relatively good condition, not much wear or signs of usage. Only around the strap anchors and the film door (the one that pivots like a garage door). I might change that last part for a better one - if I found one for a good price. But on the other hand, I like the look of it.

I've tested the camera - not yet with film. Everything seems to work. I have yet to test the RF calibration. But when I tested the shutter speeds, I noticed that the slow speeds - between 1s and 1/15 - are either shorter or longer when compared to another camera. I test it by simultaneously pressing the shutter buttons of the M4-P and either my Nikon F3 or Z6. Both Nikons are completely in sync, the Leica is not. Not much, but it is audible and visible. Sometimes it is, but than it is not. So I would get unpredictable results. I know these are slow speeds, you don't use much handheld. But if these are not correct, the mid and high speeds might also need work? Or are the speeds divided on one or more separate mechanismes? Like an old Hasselblad.

Strangely, when I turn the camera upside down, the shutter speeds are too long (about 30-40%). Is this a known symptom? Is this normal?

I've read that this inconsistency is possibly caused by clogged up grease and a CLA is in order. I also found some people telling to put the camera on the heating or in the sun and that his loosens up the old dirty grease. Or cycle through all the shutter speeds about a hundred times.

I was also worried about the winding down sound after slow speeds, but a quick search on this forum has explained me that this is normal. It does sound not so smooth, like it hesitates.

I would like to hear anyone who has some advice or explanation, before I send it off to CLA - which is a bummer because the seller sold it as "working perfectly" and when I told him about the shutter speeds inconsistencies, he responded that "he did not notice anything" and "it's normal for an old camera". I don't agree with him, because I always thoroughly check my equipment when I sell and a Leica is not a camera I consider to be fine when it works just okay-ish. It seems that the seller won't offer me any refund or compromis.

I tried to do my best, but English is not my mother tongue.

[jaapv]

Have a good repair shop do a CLA. “Working perfectly “ means “needs maintenance “ on eBay. 

[andrew01]

I think it is normal to notice some timing difference between a purely mechanical camera and a quartz timed electronic camera. I wouldn’t be too hard on the seller for some inaccuracies in the slow speeds.  Send it off for a CLA and then you will have piece of mind that the camera is in spec.  

This is why I think it is better to buy an M camera from a dealer who would have at least tested with a shutter timer and given the camera a tune up if needed.  

 

 

 

 

[Chuck Albertson]

A camera may indeed look great if it hasn't seen much use, but the mechanics may be gummed up as a result of it not having seen much use. I bought my first M4-2 from an Army Ranger, who took it on ops - it was well used, had flown on lots of aircraft, and therefore he sent it in for a CLA before putting it up for sale. Sort of like having a car detailed before advertising it for sale.

The M4-P has been out for at least 40 years. If it hasn't been serviced since it was bought, it's overdue.

[Lawrence_L]

Yes, Chuck. I wanted to sell my backup Pentax 6x7 last month and when I tested it functions, it appeared that one of the shutter curtains was running a bit late and showed up in the frame occasionally.

That body is now in a professional repair shop to get it fully serviced so the next owner can enjoy it to its fullest.

That's why I'm so disappointed when I found out my Leica needed a CLA, even when sold as "perfectly working". I guess not everyone shares the same priorities.

[AndreasG]

vor 44 Minuten schrieb Lawrence_L:

That's why I'm so disappointed when I found out my Leica needed a CLA, even when sold as "perfectly working". I guess not everyone shares the same priorities.

I suppose that most M4-P (and further Ms) users almost never use the slow speeds, at least, I cannot remember when I used speeds less than 1/30. So, the "defects" went unnoticed by the owner.

[Danner]

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Here's a video showing a lot of the M internals.  The slow speed shutter control (on the bottom of the lens box), needs to be cleaned and lubricated.

Good luck ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR0RZzo_8Yc

[250swb]

On 5/26/2021 at 9:09 PM, Lawrence_L said:

Hi. I just bought a Leica M4-P as my first step into the world of Leica. I'm exicted.

The camera is in relatively good condition, not much wear or signs of usage. Only around the strap anchors and the film door (the one that pivots like a garage door). I might change that last part for a better one - if I found one for a good price. But on the other hand, I like the look of it.

I've tested the camera - not yet with film. Everything seems to work. I have yet to test the RF calibration. But when I tested the shutter speeds, I noticed that the slow speeds - between 1s and 1/15 - are either shorter or longer when compared to another camera. I test it by simultaneously pressing the shutter buttons of the M4-P and either my Nikon F3 or Z6. Both Nikons are completely in sync, the Leica is not. Not much, but it is audible and visible. Sometimes it is, but than it is not. So I would get unpredictable results. I know these are slow speeds, you don't use much handheld. But if these are not correct, the mid and high speeds might also need work? Or are the speeds divided on one or more separate mechanismes? Like an old Hasselblad.

Strangely, when I turn the camera upside down, the shutter speeds are too long (about 30-40%). Is this a known symptom? Is this normal?

I've read that this inconsistency is possibly caused by clogged up grease and a CLA is in order. I also found some people telling to put the camera on the heating or in the sun and that his loosens up the old dirty grease. Or cycle through all the shutter speeds about a hundred times.

I was also worried about the winding down sound after slow speeds, but a quick search on this forum has explained me that this is normal. It does sound not so smooth, like it hesitates.

I would like to hear anyone who has some advice or explanation, before I send it off to CLA - which is a bummer because the seller sold it as "working perfectly" and when I told him about the shutter speeds inconsistencies, he responded that "he did not notice anything" and "it's normal for an old camera". I don't agree with him, because I always thoroughly check my equipment when I sell and a Leica is not a camera I consider to be fine when it works just okay-ish. It seems that the seller won't offer me any refund or compromis.

I tried to do my best, but English is not my mother tongue.

I would try it with a film before sending it for a CLA, it both confirms or denies what you think, or at least gives the repairman some examples to work with.

[Topsy]

34 minutes ago, 250swb said:

I would try it with a film before sending it for a CLA, it both confirms or denies what you think, or at least gives the repairman some examples to work with.

I'd agree with that, put a slide film through it and see what you get.

[tommonego@gmail.com]

I agree that the camera needs a CLA, if the slow shutter speeds seem off. Definitely run a roll of film though it to check the high speeds, and to use the camera. See how much you use the slow speeds so you can maybe wait until next winter for the CLA. A nice looking Leica may have been sitting for a while, shutters get gummy if they sit around unused. 

Edited May 30, 2021 by tommonego@gmail.com

[andrew01]

Another thing worth noting is that the standard specification for the accuracy of a mechanical shutter is about 1/3 of a stop.  So your 1 second setting could be measured at 1.3 second and still be within the manufacturer tolerances.  This is another reason why it is unreasonable to expect perfect consistency with a quartz timed electronic shutter like the one in the F3.

I use 1/125 or 1/250 99% of the time when I use my film Leica’s.  The compact size of the cameras make them more favourable for informal hand held photography rather than lugging a tripod and setting up a low light shot at slow speed.

[250swb]

18 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

Another thing worth noting is that the standard specification for the accuracy of a mechanical shutter is about 1/3 of a stop.  So your 1 second setting could be measured at 1.3 second and still be within the manufacturer tolerances.

Yeah, I've never noticed that.

[Lawrence_L]

39 minutes ago, andrew01 said:

Another thing worth noting is that the standard specification for the accuracy of a mechanical shutter is about 1/3 of a stop.  So your 1 second setting could be measured at 1.3 second and still be within the manufacturer tolerances.  This is another reason why it is unreasonable to expect perfect consistency with a quartz timed electronic shutter like the one in the F3.

I use 1/125 or 1/250 99% of the time when I use my film Leica’s.  The compact size of the cameras make them more favourable for informal hand held photography rather than lugging a tripod and setting up a low light shot at slow speed.

If that's the case, that might be good news. But either way, I've contacted a repair shop in Amsterdam where my Pentax 67 is currently in repair. And they agreed to do a quick check of the shutter speeds when I come to collect my repaired Pentax 67 body. A CLA of the M4-P would be 250€, a lite CLA would be 100€, plus taxes.

But the more I read, the less I'm getting worried. The only thing that is left worth bothering to me, will be the very slight haze on the inside window of the viewfinder (seen from the front). The small RF patch windows has about the same, including some dust specks. Not sure if it will be noticeable, but a quick clean can only improve things. I did notice some flaring when shooting at a certain angle to the sun or a bright light source. Not sure I can call it flaring, but I mean that the RF patch lit up (or got darker, not sure now) and made it more difficult to see it and focus.

If the (mid to high) speeds are okay, I could ask for that clean up and a lite CLA. Today I got my first test roll back, so that might give my some insight in the accuracy of the speeds. Fingers crossed that the range finder is not out of alignment (or one of my lenses). I also wonder whether the film advance lever is as smooth as he should be. Because I have no reference, it's the first Leica I ever held in my hands. 

It does feel good, nonetheless.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Lawrence_L

[earleygallery]

It sounds rather like you're worrying over too much and fiddling too much - testing the shutter with the camera upside down? Wondering about the film advance smoothness? Dust specks in the viewfinder of a 50 year old camera?

See how the film turns out and go from there.

[Lawrence_L]

8 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

It sounds rather like you're worrying over too much and fiddling too much - testing the shutter with the camera upside down? Wondering about the film advance smoothness? Dust specks in the viewfinder of a 50 year old camera?

See how the film turns out and go from there.

It's an expensive purchase. I believe it's normal to test it after purchase. I've compared shutter speeds on all cameras I ever bought second hand. I prefer my tools to be in good user condition and ready for years of use. Especially with Leica. Not sur why you would call that "fiddling too much".

The change in shutter speed when I held it upside down was purely by chance. I was going through the speeds, because the camera had been sitting on a shelf for a couple of years and I noticed a difference of about a half a second. Only when I held the camera upside down. It is what it is.

The dust specks and haze are no complaints towards anyone, I just would like to see them cleaned out if they open up the top at the repair shop. That's all I stated. 

[earleygallery]

As I said, see how the photos come out and if there are no apparent issues, i.e. speeds are within tolerance etc., then you have the choice to just use it or still send it for a CLA. Obviously if the shutter is off then the CLA is necessary whatever.

From what you say I think you would be happier if you had the camera done regardless, as it will be cleaned out of dust and you will know that it should then be fine for a long time to come.