Leica M 240 sensor issue/flaw

[ianman]

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On 5/21/2021 at 2:42 AM, boojum said:

I have bought four, two M240's, an M9 and an M8.2.  So far, so good.  But let's face it, these cameras are a pain in the ass to work with.

I don’t understand why you would buy four expensive cameras if you think they are a PITA to work with. Not being critical but I really don’t understand the behaviour.

[ianman]

33 minutes ago, jaapv said:

In fact, the only thing I have said in another post is  that they resolved it as best they could, by first replacing for free for five years and then for a new-for-old  reduced fee where they did not charge labour , and by offering a trade-in option.

Their response to the M9 sensor issue was terrible. I just about gave up on Leica at that time because although it was and still is the only digital camera I really want, mine was unusable very early on due to what I found out much later was corrosion. I first noticed it in 2012 IIRC, at first I thought it was a load of crud that had gathered on the sensor, but I could not clean it however much I tried. The original sensor could have been made by Dyson it was so good at attracting dust. I’ve always wondered if it could be related to the corroding glass.

After multiple exchanges and them insisting it was just dust, they finally accepted to change the sensor foc. The thing is though, once the knew about the issue there should have been a full recall. It has always been known that every camera is at risk of developing the issue, it is a built-in fault. The fact that I had to “fight” to get mine repaired was, I think, disgraceful behaviour on their part. It took 4 years to get my camera back to how it should always have been. That being said, and I know this is very subjective, but I think the new sensor is even better than the first. What is not subjective is that it no longer collects dust like the first one. I think I may have cleaned it once since 2016 and I don’t really pay any attention to where I swap lenses.

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[jaapv]

Yes I mentioned that and the role of the forum in turning Leica round. It shouldn’t have been needed. The point is that Leica did listen in the end. I know other brands that didn’t b

[ianman]

They did nothing to warn users about the issue. They should have replaced the sensor on ALL bodies whether they had the problem or not. They knew that every single camera sold had a time bomb inside and yet did nothing to warn users. It was up to customers to fight them in order to get what they had paid for. Even now, we constantly see people with original sensor cameras which are still very good but unsellable because nobody will touch them with a barge pole. It is a huge stain on their reputation that hopefully will stick for decades so they won’t make the same mistake twice.

They finally came around? 4 years it took... and I consider myself lucky compared to people who were never told their camera had a built in flaw on the most important component. Utterly disgusting behaviour from them at that time.

[Marac]

I have had a couple of M9's with sensor issues, repaired free of charge, turn around in 2 months

I have had 3 M9M's 2 sent in for sensor exchange free of charge turn around about 2 months (the 3rd I still own and had the new sensor fitted already)

M240, I had 4 of these, (1 was a loan from Leica UK while my M240 was in for repair)ALL of them had the verticle line issue, one had a shard of sensor glass fall off during a shoot, all of them were repaired for free.

So basically they have issues but dealt with them very well and for free, no complaints from me. I avoid the M240 because of my personal experience with them. I love the M9M so I will use it until one of us dies.

So far, in my experience, the best camera from Leica has been the CL, no issues at all and very satisfactory results, (the SL was also excellent) I know, it's not an M but I couldn't really care less at this stage in life, I'm very happy with the M9M & CL in tandem with M mount glass.

Every electronics company (I run an audio mastering/mixing/recording studio full of outboard electronics so I know all about electronic failure, but I think Leica was honourable with their repair policy, or certainly with the issues I had.

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

They did nothing to warn users about the issue. They should have replaced the sensor on ALL bodies whether they had the problem or not. They knew that every single camera sold had a time bomb inside and yet did nothing to warn users. It was up to customers to fight them in order to get what they had paid for. Even now, we constantly see people with original sensor cameras which are still very good but unsellable because nobody will touch them with a barge pole. It is a huge stain on their reputation that hopefully will stick for decades so they won’t make the same mistake twice.

They finally came around? 4 years it took... and I consider myself lucky compared to people who were never told their camera had a built in flaw on the most important component. Utterly disgusting behaviour from them at that time.

Debatable - recall all cameras or repair on complaint. They would never have had the capacity to replace all sensors in a reasonable time span. Probably better to help the owners who needed it. There is  a financial consideration as well I'm sure the sensor maker was involved too and they would have had a dim view of needless replacement. And we have no idea which percentage was affected.

 

[ianman]

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42 minutes ago, jaapv said:

And we have no idea which percentage was affected.

All have the potential of being infected and so need vaccination.

M9 owners who get the problem now (and for what 2 or 3 years now) are left with a brick... and Leica (and everyone) knew it could happen. Owners who still have the original sensor cannot sell, even if it doens't display any corrosion problems.

You can debate all you like, but the fact is their behaviour in this instance was immoral and indefensible.

Edited May 22, 2021 by ianman

[ianman]

1 hour ago, Marac said:

I have had a couple of M9's with sensor issues, repaired free of charge, turn around in 2 months

I have had 3 M9M's 2 sent in for sensor exchange free of charge turn around about 2 months

Yes, as were many. Did you have to fight for 4 years to get them to accept there was an issue? I guess not, but if so, would you have been happy?

In your buisness you most likely know about the issue Moog had with some of their Voyager Synths a few years ago. They wrote to each and every owner telling them about it and giving instructions how to get the whole analog board replaced for free.

I'm not saying I'm not happy about the turn around, once they acknowledge the problem I had a new sensor in a few months too. Much faster than I was expecting. And I was ecstatic about it. It was the whole denial on their part that I find deplorable... and also, as above, not warning each and every user once the issue had been identified.

edit: sorry for slightly derailing the thread, I shall write no more on the issue.

Edited May 22, 2021 by ianman

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, Marac said:

So far, in my experience, the best camera from Leica has been the CL, no issues at all and very satisfactory results, (the SL was also excellent) I know, it's not an M but I couldn't really care less at this stage in life, I'm very happy with the M9M & CL in tandem with M mount glass.

I could have written that -were it not that my CL is off for its second repair, eye sensor twice and now the right arrow button lost its function as well. My M9 only had a sensor replacement in twelve years...

[jaapv]

1 hour ago, ianman said:

All have the potential of being infected and so need vaccination.

M9 owners who get the problem now (and for what 2 or 3 years now) are left with a brick... and Leica (and everyone) knew it could happen. Owners who still have the original sensor cannot sell, even if it doens't display any corrosion problems.

You can debate all you like, but the fact is their behaviour in this instance was immoral and indefensible.

That is what the trade-in offer is for. And there are third-party repairers. Not a fact, just your opinion.

[jaapv]

2 hours ago, ianman said:

not warning each and every user once the issue had been identified.

How would they do that? Most owners are not registered.When was the last time that your personal data were asked in a shop sale and illegally shared? 

[ianman]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

How would they do that? Most owners are not registered.When was the last time that your personal data were asked in a shop sale and illegally shared? 

Do you have evidence that most users are not registered? You are just guessing. In any case they could have at least got in touch with the registered owners. They didn't.

I don't see what a shop has got to do with the discussion.

[jaapv]

No I am not guessing. Your personal data cannot be stored nor shared without your explicit consent. EU regulations and local laws are quite clear on that. The fines are crippling. 

[ianman]

pffff... here we go again... there are none so blind as those who will not see.

Edited May 22, 2021 by ianman

[jaapv]

Anyway, simply do the maths. If Leica had done a total recall they would have had to refurbish within a year or so. Assuming that they would have been able to detach twenty competent technicians to do the job-it would be nearly impossible and  disruptive to do so for a company the size of Leica - to reach the numbers required , these technicians would have to replace ten to fifteen sensors an hour. Sheer lunacy. Far better to do the work on basis of customer request. 

[jaapv]

That is the strongest argument you have produced so far.

[LocalHero1953]

Oddly it's just the digital Ms that have had the systematic faults, not the SL, T/TL, CL or Q.

• M8: IR contamination
• M9: sensor corrosion
• M240: freezing/lockup
• M10: the great strap lug outrage

Not a body issue, but S lenses have had AF failures as well. 

[Jeff S]

23 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Oddly it's just the digital Ms that have had the systematic faults, not the SL, T/TL, CL or Q.

• M8: IR contamination
• M9: sensor corrosion
• M240: freezing/lockup
• M10: the great strap lug outrage

Not a body issue, but S lenses have had AF failures as well. 

And M8 screen stains, lots more initial M9 issues (color, buffer and card issues, sensor cracks, etc).  The M10 platform seems more stable and robust, so far (the strap lug issue was addressed early on).
 

Leica still hasn’t issued any formal explanation or apology for S system issues, unlike the direct forum response by Leica execs regarding some of the M issues discussed here. 
 

Jeff

Edited May 22, 2021 by Jeff S

[jaapv]

27 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Oddly it's just the digital Ms that have had the systematic faults, not the SL, T/TL, CL or Q.

• M8: IR contamination
• M9: sensor corrosion
• M240: freezing/lockup
• M10: the great strap lug outrage

Not a body issue, but S lenses have had AF failures as well. 

Not odd, it is a 21st century technology grafted onto a mid-20th centuryn platform, developed from the 1920ies. It would be strange if there were no compromises and technological mismatches.

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[martinot]

2 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Oddly it's just the digital Ms that have had the systematic faults, not the SL, T/TL, CL or Q.

• M240: freezing/lockup

Never had any freezes or lockups on my M-E 240. I wonder if it perhaps have been fixed in newer firmware? 

Or if it is the increased buffer size (2GB) that helps?