Leica M 240 sensor issue/flaw

[boojum]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

Somehow there is this belief that Leica electronics are alright to fail.  However I have very old other brand digitals that are working just fine without failure.  I have a 21 year-old SONY that still takes great photos and has never failed to do so.  I have other electronic film cameras even older which are working just fine.  And while I may not know, nor do any of us know, just what the percentage of electronic failure is in Leicas, it is appalling.  These are supposed to be "the best" that the camera world has to offer.  And the reports of Leica's failure to repair correctly or to be unable to repair at all are very disappointing.  And worse is for the owner to be blamed for not having his camera repaired by Leica.  Oh, right, blame the victim.  An owner should be able to send it to any Leica facility for repairs and be sure the repairs will be done correctly.  Repair roulette is not OK with me.  Is this how Leica operates?  Apparently so. My belief, and this must be quite naive, is that I can send the camera to Leica and get it fixed, every time.  And that I do not have to hear the story that "the camera is too old" or any other thing.  For the prices of these cameras and for the reputation promoted by Leitz of themselves the reputation does not meet the reality.

What I have learned from this forum is that 1) my camera is not dependable, always bring a spare non-Leica camera, and 2) do not send it to Leica for repairs.  So far none of my Leicas has failed.  If one does the first trip will be to a non-Leica facility.  Just reading the stories of spotty services and incredibly long turnaround times makes me wonder if Leica really cares or if Leica is competent.  I am not making this up.  This is what I read again and again.  This is a repeatedly reported fact.  Yes, the old mechanicals are good.  And you can stand on them!  Woohoo, that counts for . . . ?  Oh, that counts for nothing.  And I sure would like to read of electronic successes rather than the litany of failures, right here on this board.  And any number of folks reporting that their cameras are working just fine cannot erase the reports of camera failure and botched repair by Leica.  It may be alright for other folks.  For me it is not. 

The comment that the Leica is like an old Jaguar, to be taken out and gently driven on weekends sums it up.  Lucas electrics, Smith gauges, SU carbs and constant oil leaks.  An apt comparison.  I had so hoped for something better, like a VW.  Something that will always work and get the job done and done right.  

[jaapv]

Nor can the small number of camera failures erase the large number of cameras working flawlessly. Your argument cuts no ice.

I can only read your post as baseless Leica-bashing, especially as "so far none of your Leicas have failed"  So yes, you are making it up in the sense that you are turning a few case histories into a theory.

For the time being Nikon is the only camera maker to have lost two class action suits over failed electronics, not Leica.

Oh, and VW reliable? Try their electronics...

https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/volkswagen/

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[boojum]

52 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Nor can the small number of camera failures erase the large number of cameras working flawlessly. Your argument cuts no ice.

I can only read your post as baseless Leica-bashing, especially as "so far none of your Leicas have failed"  So yes, you are making it up in the sense that you are turning case histories into a theory.

For the time being Nikon is the only camera maker to have lost two class action suits over failed electronics, not Leica.

Oh, and VW reliable? Try their electronics...

https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/volkswagen/

I do not enjoy engaging in this.  I enjoy less the damocleasian reality of Leica ownership.  I am reacting to reported fact.  Let me repeat that, reported fact.  I am not making this up.  This is what owners are reporting on this board.  Leica touts itself as "The Best"  yet they fail to repair their product or are unable to repair their product.  In my book that is not "The Best."  And blaming the owner for Leica repair facility failures is victim shaming and blaming.  When I buy a quality product I believe it is reasonable that the manufacturer can make the repairs 100% of the time, not just sometimes.  And if they fail I must send it to such and such other company facility is not quality.

As for auto comparisons, as the first instance was a tired old Jag a contemporaneous comparison was what I had in mind, the VW Beetle/Bug, a car that always works.  Today's German cars have a lot of problems.  Sounds familiar to me.  Today if you want a car that is quality and will always work, buy a Honda or a Toyota.  And it is like that with cameras, too,  Nikon may have had legal problems.  But the rest of the Japanese camera industry is quite strong.  Remember, SONY, 41%,  Leica < 1%.   Dress it up any way you want but Leica's ventures into the world of electronics has not been good other than when they re-brand Japanese brands.  I've a nice old pocket Lumix that is going strong, takes good pics with a "Leica" lens and Panasonic electronics.  Let's face it, Leica is not at the top of their game with electronics.  There is room for improvement.

Edited May 22, 2021 by boojum

[jaeger]

1 hour ago, boojum said:

I do not enjoy engaging in this.  I enjoy less the damocleasian reality of Leica ownership.  I am reacting to reported fact.  Let me repeat that, reported fact.  I am not making this up.  This is what owners are reporting on this board.  Leica touts itself as "The Best"  yet they fail to repair their product or are unable to repair their product.  In my book that is not "The Best."  And blaming the owner for Leica repair facility failures is victim shaming and blaming.  When I buy a quality product I believe it is reasonable that the manufacturer can make the repairs 100% of the time, not just sometimes.  And if they fail I must send it to such and such other company facility is not quality.

As for auto comparisons, as the first instance was a tired old Jag a contemporaneous comparison was what I had in mind, the VW Beetle/Bug, a car that always works.  Today's German cars have a lot of problems.  Sounds familiar to me.  Today if you want a car that is quality and will always work, buy a Honda or a Toyota.  And it is like that with cameras, too,  Nikon may have had legal problems.  But the rest of the Japanese camera industry is quite strong.  Remember, SONY, 41%,  Leica < 1%.   Dress it up any way you want but Leica's ventures into the world of electronics has not been good other than when they re-brand Japanese brands.  I've a nice old pocket Lumix that is going strong, takes good pics with a "Leica" lens and Panasonic electronics.  Let's face it, Leica is not at the top of their game with electronics.  There is room for improvement.

Leica is owned by an American group since 5,10 years ago.  It's not really a German company anymore, for sure the culture isn't.  It's more like a money making machine now.

reference to Mercedes that got acquired by Chryler last decade, oh boy...

Edited May 22, 2021 by jaeger

[plaidshirts]

If I’m reading the original post correctly, the OP’s dismay is due, not to the fact that his M240 sensor has a problem, but that the factory claimed it was fixed when it clearly wasn’t. 
Any reasonable person knows electronics can and will fail at some point. If they said my Leica is beyond repair after a fair number of years, I’d be upset but probably would get over it and look for a replacement. However, if they said it’s fixable and go through the motion (seemingly, as the problem persists) for a hefty price not once but twice, I’d be pissed too.

Let’s stop with the “mine is fine so it sucks to be you” comments and be supportive of holding Leica accountable for their products because they can and should do better. 

[jaapv]

Let's stick to facts and not make sweeping and false statements.

Facts in this thread:

1.The OP has a real problem with an incorrectly handled repair.

2. Err ... rather nothing..

 I struggle to recall many instances of electronic failure, although there have been some, so I listed hem below,.
And  then - failure to repair. . So far there have only been problems of not being able to repair when there was a supply problem with parts - and those were exceptional circumstances that were discussed ad nauseam here and a normal - even low- number of glitches and botched repairs.

So:
Digilux2 (2004) Not supported any more
DMR (2005) Not supported any more - too soon due to corporate struggle
M8(2006)  Supported except for LCD and sensor. (but who is going to demand a 1000-2000 Euro repair for a <1000$ camera?)
M9(2009) Supported except for sensor (same question: 2500 $ now that the last courtesy subsidy has expired?)
M240 and forward fully supported.

Systematic Electronic failures:
Digilux2: Regular (Sony!) sensor failure - has been replaced for free up to 2017 approx.
M8: first 1500 cameras occasional processing failure - solved through recall. Sudden death on 20 cameras in early 2007 solved. Some  mechanical shutter failures. Reports faded away after a few months.
M9 Sensor crack in about (high estimate)100 cameras. All replaced, no further reports. Sensor corrosion issue - well known history,  still a trade-in policy.
M240: Heat management problem solved through firmware update. Some minor SD card compatibility problems
M10: Mechanical problem on ISO switch in early cameras.

Customer service problems:
Not as fast as some would wish, often due with the logistics of spare parts. Sometimes unexplained extremely slow.
The USA branch has had a period of sub-par performance which led to many complaints, but appears to be resolved.
There is  a very low rate of botched repairs, the forum gets a small (well below ten per year) number of threads, including this one.

A bit outside the scope of this post: Let's not forget that Leica CS (in fact the whole company) is exceedingly good in direct personal customer relations and contact for all their customers.

That is hardly the record of a company that is struggling with their electronics.

 

[jaapv]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

As for the OP:

If he had taken the normal steps  that any reasonable consumer would have, like simply returning the repair as insufficient, written a complaint to the management, complained about double charging, or even queried the price, taken it to the management in Wetzlar, etc., that would have made for a useful thread and incurred the understanding of any forum member for his very real issue.
Instead, stirring up the pot by shrill language, false claims of class actions, plainly wrong generalizations,etc. makes it hard to see beyond the shouting.

[LocalHero1953]

The trouble with bashing Leica by citing Brand X and Brand Y as exemplars of how to do quality control, warranty repairs and reliability properly is that we could all tell war stories about the failings of Brand X and Brand Y.

You want to hear about my problems with VW Golf electronics that baffle VW agents? The death of my Sony radio? My seized up high end Swiss coffee machine? The impenetrable firmware of my German boiler?

No?

I thought not.

 

Edit. And yes, I have have had two poorly calibrated M lenses fixed, one SL lens with a stiff focus ring fixed twice, M camera rangefinders recalibrated twice. All very slowly, but fixed. I can't think of anything else. Sorry.  

Edited May 22, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[jaapv]

Yes, or the widespread incompetence of Mitsubishi dealers in handling plug-in-hybrid Outlanders in countries where those are not so common? My Volvo electronics woes which bricked the car repeatedly until, I found out that it is wise to strip the paint of an earth point?, etc?.

Exactly what I mean: case histories are not statistics.

[LocalHero1953]

5 minutes ago, jaapv said:

case histories are not statistics.

Oh yes they are😁

7 hours ago, boojum said:

And while I may not know, nor do any of us know, just what the percentage of electronic failure is in Leicas, it is appalling.

 

 

 

 

[jaapv]

Indeed, the appalling unknown... The bogeyman of this age...🤪

[luigi bertolotti]

8 hours ago, boojum said:

... do not send it to Leica for repairs.  So far none of my Leicas has failed.  If one does the first trip will be to a non-Leica facility...

That's my situation too  (about digital... my old IIIf was indeed repaired by a 3rd party...) : but I wonder... if you have a sensor issue... are non-leica labs able to perform ? Maybe they can be more careful to the final control (i.e., to note the  horizontal  strip of the OP... this is all about the person in charge) but don't know if a 3rd party can have access to the needed tools, parts, instruments  (I an not arguing, to be clear... I really don't know, for I never asked about to the two local labs I know)

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by luigi bertolotti

[jaapv]

7 minutes ago, luigi bertolotti said:

but I wonder... if you have a sensor issue... are non-leica labs able to perform

No - they don't have the expertise, they don't have the parts, they don't have the tools, nor the inclination to do any electronic repair. The only exception is a couple of firms offering cover glass replacement.

[analog-digital]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb jaapv:

Nor can the small number of camera failures erase the large number of cameras working flawlessly. Your argument cuts no ice.

I can only read your post as baseless Leica-bashing, especially as "so far none of your Leicas have failed"  So yes, you are making it up in the sense that you are turning a few case histories into a theory.

For the time being Nikon is the only camera maker to have lost two class action suits over failed electronics, not Leica.

Oh, and VW reliable? Try their electronics...

https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/volkswagen/

The sensor corrosion problem at Leica with various cameras is not small, it is big. To now claim that this is all Leica bashing shows short-sightedness on your part. 

[jaapv]

Where did I say it was small? Certainly not in the post you quote, nor anywhere else in this thread.
In fact, the only thing I have said in another post is  that they resolved it as best they could, by first replacing for free for five years and then for a new-for-old  reduced fee where they did not charge labour , and by offering a trade-in option.

The problem did start small, with only 5% of cameras affected, that is true, but it soon ballooned to over half of the cameras...

If I may be precise, that was not an electronic failure at all. It was porosities the protective coating of the IR cover glass which, for optical reasons, was made of a type of glass that could corrode. Nothing to do with electronics. Come to think of it, a sensor line  or dead pixel is not really an electronic failure but cosmic ray damage on a molecular level.

I may draw your attention that the bashing in question is about a sensor line on the M240, which is
a. a general problem with aging sensors of all brands and
b. a camera that has no specific sensor issues.

Edited May 22, 2021 by jaapv
added to post

[Gobert]

7 minutes ago, analog-digital said:

The sensor corrosion problem at Leica with various cameras is not small, it is big. To now claim that this is all Leica bashing shows short-sightedness on your part. 

Please re-read what @Jaapv has written down.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Gobert

[andybarton]

The meter on my M240 has regular failures but switching off/on fixes the problem. It won’t be going back to Wetzlar just for that. 

[jaapv]

Sounds like dirt in the switch, Andy

[andybarton]

No. It’s the meter that’s off. Even the manually set speeds show as different on the rear screen. It’s an electronic thing inside that’s wrong. Probably needs a new board or something - something that I can’t afford. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[jaapv]

I`see. Bummer. Yes, a repair of that kind is not cheap.