willeica Posted June 14, 2021 Share #21 Posted June 14, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 15 hours ago, dubois pierre said: Unfortunately, despite its very good original condition this Leica Luxus I Mod.A 48402 did not raise the biddings at the auction of 12/06/2021 in Vienna. This sale shows a clear decline of the offers for this model. https://leicaluxus.monsite-orange.fr/ Thanks for this very comprehensive coverage. As the advertisements for financial services say, the value of your investment may go up or down. That is if you regard the purchase of a vintage camera as an investment. 10 hours ago, PG Black nickel said: imagine the face of the guy who bought the luxus in 2013!!! he must think he would have been better off buying bitcoin!!! For an investment it's a failure! Unless he's a real collector who doesn't care about the value of his collection... Your second sentence says it all. I buy cameras as a collector only. Looking at this and other auctions, many of the items I bought are now worth more than I paid for them. Even if there was some fall off the effect would not be that great for me as most of my items are relatively 'modest'. However, for people who bought very expensive items at the height of the market the effect can be much greater. 24 minutes ago, nitroplait said: I wouldn't worry too much on making sense of some of the extreme prices paid on antique and art auctions. It is one of those areas that remains sufficiently un-transparent to serve for money laundering. I agree with your first sentence. Your second point might be true in some cases, as art works are a way of putting value aside, but I would have thought that auctions are a bit more transparent than most of the money laundering activities going on. What if the police came knocking on the auctioneer's door? In some countries auctioneers need a license of some kind. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 14, 2021 Share #22 Posted June 14, 2021 1 hour ago, willeica said: I agree with your first sentence. Your second point might be true in some cases, as art works are a way of putting value aside, but I would have thought that auctions are a bit more transparent than most of the money laundering activities going on. What if the police came knocking on the auctioneer's door? In some countries auctioneers need a license of some kind. William Me too think that the money laundering has probably other ways than "official" auction houses, expecially in Europe (while for episodes which I casually observed, think that maybe some "private" buy-sell of highly valued classic cars can arise some suspicion...) ; what I think is that a certain degree of "gray" can arise from possible maneuvring on prices to "overheat" some items, in the prospect of future sales of similar ones ... I mean (hipotesis, of course) ... if the auctioneer agrees with a "friend" for very high bid on, (let's say) a "montè en Sarre" Leica (of which the auctioneer already has the availability of, say, 5 or 6 items) with the explicit agreement of a following buyback , this creates an "heating" of the attention on the item, to capitalize onto on the next auctions : I think that this kind of schema, pursued with care, can be not alien to auction houses... possibly also with collateral agreements between different auction houses. Is not a criminal nor illegal behavior in strict terms... any business has its own way to try to "influence" its marketplace.... and collecting is, by its side, a very special marketplace Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 14, 2021 Share #23 Posted June 14, 2021 Oh yes, it is totally illegal, article 101 of the TFEU in Europe and the Sherman Act in the USA. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
luigi bertolotti Posted June 14, 2021 Share #24 Posted June 14, 2021 (edited) You say ? Agreement with a competitor (to say, another auction house) to maneuvre the market is surely illegal, you're right ... is such for all business... but an agreement - unwritten... "friendly"... with an individual... time to time for a "one shot" event like an auction... I fear we are in a "grey zone"... 🙄 Edited June 14, 2021 by luigi bertolotti Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaapv Posted June 14, 2021 Share #25 Posted June 14, 2021 Well, grey zone - let's say saved by lack of tangible evidence... . Doesn't make it less illegal. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
nitroplait Posted June 14, 2021 Share #26 Posted June 14, 2021 Perhaps "money laundering" was an incorrect term as it implies criminal activity, I'll soften it by saying that the auction world is well suited as an alternative financial instrument because of its lack of transparency and subjective value assessment, and as such it can be used for other things than just satisfying the enthusiastic or wealthy collector. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 14, 2021 Share #27 Posted June 14, 2021 Advertisement (gone after registration) 1 hour ago, luigi bertolotti said: You say ? Agreement with a competitor (to say, another auction house) to maneuvre the market is surely illegal, you're right ... is such for all business... but an agreement - unwritten... "friendly"... with an individual... time to time for a "one shot" event like an auction... I fear we are in a "grey zone"... 🙄 There is a concept in competition law called ‘bid rigging’, but I’m not sure that the concept is applicable here. Any moves to deceive bidders could be deemed to be a breach of consumer law or general law as the consumer has to be sure that they are bidding against other genuine bids. William jaapv 1 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share #28 Posted June 18, 2021 The auction house would take a risk then if there was a bid rigging. Having been an spectator at some sales, very often the decision is made by bids over the phone and not in the auction room. For Leicas Luxus the best years were 2012 and 2014. The bulk of the market was Asian and I guess they are fed up now. But did they make a good deal? That is the question when you see the latest sale of Leica Photografica Auction. The first Leica Luxus appeared on the auction market in 2005. The Leica Luxus I Model A No. 28692, the highest inflation ever for a Luxus first sold on September 06, 2005 for only $33,600 and would be sold again 7 years later for $1,326,000! Take three dogs, throw a piece of meat, the fastest and strongest will eat the piece. The others will wait to get their share. But when the three are full, the piece of meat will not be worth the same to the fourth. And without fighting he will have had the same piece. Translated with www.DeepL.com/Translator (french/english) Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
PG Black nickel Posted June 18, 2021 Share #29 Posted June 18, 2021 it's a nice comparison Pierre, so we just have to be patient and these beautiful cameras will maybe be ours for reasonable prices! One thing though, I find that estimates are generally too high...is it to please the seller. I must admit that a few times I pushed the auction house to raise the estimate of an item I was selling at auction and each time I was wrong! It is in fact when the estimate was low that I made the best deals! Philippe Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted June 18, 2021 Author Share #30 Posted June 18, 2021 😉Quite Philippe, the best example is the proposals for sale on ebay. Many sellers go for the high prices and the cameras don't find buyers, whereas a lower price will attract more bidders. Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frame-it Posted July 4, 2021 Share #31 Posted July 4, 2021 at one of the Local Leica Stores : SL2S + Helios-44M-4 58mm f/2 Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden! Hello guest! Please register or sign in to view the hidden content. Hallo Gast! Du willst die Bilder sehen? Einfach registrieren oder anmelden! Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jerzy Posted July 6, 2021 Share #32 Posted July 6, 2021 ... not genuine Luxus though. Camera itself (except shutter collar) seem to be genuine Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted June 18 Author Share #33 Posted June 18 Updated website 😉 https://leicaluxus.monsite-orange.fr/ Matlock, pippy and willeica 1 2 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
willeica Posted June 19 Share #34 Posted June 19 23 hours ago, dubois pierre said: Updated website 😉 https://leicaluxus.monsite-orange.fr/ Thanks, Pierre. This seems to be very comprehensive. While I am not particularly interested in the Luxus models, I do know from experience that nobody knows more about them than Lars Netopil. If anyone here has any doubt about a Luxus model or even just a Luxus copy, they should do themselves a favour and contact Lars. A Leica Standard Luxus copy sold at Leitz Auction for €1440 on 11th June, on an estimate of €2400-2600. There is a market for Luxus copies, which, of course, are much cheaper than originals. William Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dubois pierre Posted June 19 Author Share #35 Posted June 19 Thanks William, I was able to meet Lars in Wetzlar, he is a charming man and available to give the best advice and information about our dear Leicas.🙂 Quote Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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