To old time users: M-A or M4?

[pgk]

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3 minutes ago, gabrielaszalos said:

The M4 ..... is an icon, and is one of the cameras that made Leica its history, and is known to he a workhorse.

p.s. We know for sure that whoever used their M4 did so most likely heavily, and for 40+ years after giving us feedback in the years 2000. However, it is very unlikely that any M-A was used as heavily as an M4, so their reliability isn’t really proven in my opinion (and very much quite the opposite). 

I have an M4 (BP as it happens) that has been used and very heavily used indeed. It still works fine but I would not use it in any situation which required absolute reliability - its over 50 years old! An M-A makes better sense all ways around to me. But occaasionally very clean, little used M4 bodies do appear. If you are set on an M4 I would suggest that you buy a clean one and get a full CLA carried out on it by someone who knows what they are doing (which might take time and be messy depending on where they are located). This should give you a great, iconic, reliable camera for a decade or so (hopefully). Alternatively just accept that an M-A is a more logical and potentially far more reliable and repairable purchase.

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[jeffz]

I too am curious about your MP problems. What items needed repair? I own a M-A and it has been totally reliable.

[gabrielaszalos]

20 minutes ago, pgk said:

I have an M4 (BP as it happens) that has been used and very heavily used indeed. It still works fine but I would not use it in any situation which required absolute reliability - its over 50 years old! An M-A makes better sense all ways around to me. But occaasionally very clean, little used M4 bodies do appear. If you are set on an M4 I would suggest that you buy a clean one and get a full CLA carried out on it by someone who knows what they are doing (which might take time and be messy depending on where they are located). This should give you a great, iconic, reliable camera for a decade or so (hopefully). Alternatively just accept that an M-A is a more logical and potentially far more reliable and repairable purchase.

Thanks! You are right. I am just afraid that the M-A will have issues like most of the  recent Leicas I tried. But I am still optimistic that I was just unlucky and hoping this experience will not repeat as Leica has taken good care of everything. 

14 minutes ago, jeffz said:

I too am curious about your MP problems. What items needed repair? I own a M-A and it has been totally reliable.

It’s a long story which I am not yet ready to share because the story is not yet done  In short, over the past 12 months I had multiple Leica cameras which all had various issues, but Leica Customer Care has handled it all swiftly and impressively well. Nothing that you haven’t heard or seen before on this forum...

Ultimately, I will want to share my experience hoping it can provide comfort and guidance to others. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[TomB_tx]

I bought my chrome M4 in 1968, instead of a new M3 at the same price. The M4 has never let me down, and only had one service (CLA) about 10 years ago. It came back from the CLA with the RF slightly off, but the tech insisted it met factory specs. Rather than argue I sent it to DAG who made it perfect again.

Over the recent years I’ve added used M2,3,5 and had all serviced as a precaution, and all work perfectly. I’ve also had an M6 since 1985, which did eventually require new curtain seals for a light leak, and new meter board (damaged by battery leakage). I’m using the M6 again today.
The M4 is still my favorite.

Don’t worry about buying used - these cameras were designed to be maintainable - just find a reliable tech for service if needed.

[gabrielaszalos]

If it were totally up to looks and feel, I would without a doubt get a black chrome M-A. But at this point, reliability is much more important to me, and if an M4 (serviced properly, which should be no issue) will be more reliable than an M-A, then I would choose the M4. Opinions are mixed, that’s why I asked for help from old time users. Users which say “my M-A has worked great for the past 2 years” and shoot one roll a month, and have never used an older M camera extensively, aren’t of much help - no offense though, I am one of those users myself, granted I shoot maybe up to 2 rolls a week on average. 

[a.noctilux]

My experience on Leica (or other brand) gear over decades.

Never rely on one body or one lens.

Always have sort of backup.

As Murphy's laws always apply in the worse scenario.

Two M are always "better" than only one, if results are necessary.

 

Stupid accidents are always stupid, at one time my trusted M4 had it's eyelets turning almost falling, without warning.

Happily I had wrist strap screwed in baseplate to hold it.

And so on many accidents before and after that: shutter blind falling, focus follower stuck, and many more over years.

Edited April 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[gabrielaszalos]

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3 minutes ago, a.noctilux said:

My experience on Leica (or other brand) gear over decades.

Never rely on one body or one lens.

Always have sort of backup.

As Murphy's laws always apply in the worse scenario.

Two M are always "better" than only one, if results are necessary.

Haha, you know, this makes me think of a saying that goes around when talking about data backup, and that saying is: “two is one and one is none”, so going by that saying, one would need at least 3 Leica bodies 😃

[Mute-on]

1 minute ago, gabrielaszalos said:

Haha, you know, this makes me think of a saying that goes around when talking about data backup, and that saying is: “two is one and one is none”, so going by that saying, one would need at least 3 Leica bodies 😃

Correct. Three is the perfect (minimum) number

[a.noctilux]

5 minutes ago, Mute-on said:

Correct. Three is the perfect (minimum) number

😁 I still have three M4 needing repair...

to expensive repairs, even not sellable !

Edited April 4, 2021 by a.noctilux

[pgk]

48 minutes ago, gabrielaszalos said:

...... I shoot maybe up to 2 rolls a week on average. 

Thinking about this would suggest that as you are shooting say 4,000 exposure/year the following may be useful. A long time ago I heard that Leica once tried destruction testing an M3 shutter but gave up after several hundred thousand exposures. I would expect that a good, low-mileage, CLA'd M4 body should be capable of handling 40-50,000 exposure (~10years for you) if looked after, before another CLA I would hope. There are many early ltm Leicas still going strong. If you really would like an M4 it should be fine if you buy the right one and get it CLA'd.

[Danner]

I need another film M.  Love my M6 classic, but a new MP would be super-nice.  Or, a second M6 classic (which I consider the pinnacle in value).

To the OP, as for meter-less requirement, just leave the battery out of an M6, M6 TTL, or MP. [shrug]

[spydrxx]

My only ownership of M bodies have been an M4, M2 and M6. The M4 went for about 40 years as my primary camera before needing a CLA (due to my clumsiness), and worked fine thereafter. I bought a distressed M2 about 5 years ago, don't think it had a previous CLA, and is smooth and spot on...but I probably should send it in for one before all the good technicians retire. The M6...I sold after 2 years use, just never really connected with it. In your case, as a backup, you're choosing between new vs old. A tough choice. However if you decide to go with an M4, I'd strongly encourage you to factor in the cost of a CLA, which should extend its smooth working life by many many years. Good luck with your choice.

[ktmrider2]

I am curious as to why people think the MA would be more reliable than an M4 other than the MA is newer.  If both cameras use the same parts and both have had good care or a CLA, why would one work better than another, especially with the quality control Leica seems to lack with its current run of film cameras?

I thought about buying new as I can certainly afford it but talking to a couple Leica repair techs around the country convinced me I would not be gaining anything other then knowing I was contributing to Leitz's bottom line.  But I believe the M2 was the ultimate rangefinder film camera so take what I say with a grain of salt.

[logan2z]

1 hour ago, ktmrider2 said:

I thought about buying new as I can certainly afford it but talking to a couple Leica repair techs around the country convinced me I would not be gaining anything other then knowing I was contributing to Leitz's bottom line.

Sometimes it's just nice to have a brand new camera that has been untouched by others.  There certainly aren't many opportunities for that in the film camera world any longer, and who knows how long Leica will continue to offer new film Ms.  And that new camera smell is hard to beat 😊

Edited April 4, 2021 by logan2z

[gabrielaszalos]

4 minutes ago, logan2z said:

Sometimes it's just nice to have a brand new camera that has been untouched by others.  There certainly aren't many opportunities for that in the film camera world any longer, and who knows how long Leica will continue to offer new film Ms.  And that new camera smell is hard to beat 😊

Yep. That’s where it’s at. New and shiny gratification vs proven reliability. I mean, an M4 literally user-tested for 40 years that still functions perfectly after having had not one CLA, I can’t see many things that can go terribly wrong today. But then again I am no camera technician.

I am lusting after a brand new M-A, but that lust comes with some amount of fear and insecurity. Getting an M4 would not satisfy me equally but would come with more peace of mind. Argh. Such a struggle

Edited April 4, 2021 by gabrielaszalos

[logan2z]

3 minutes ago, gabrielaszalos said:

I am lusting after a brand new M-A, but that lust comes with some amount of fear and insecurity. Getting an M4 would not satisfy me equally but would come with more peace of mind. Argh. Such a struggle

Well, since this thread has established that three Leica film bodies is the ideal number, then the choice is clear - get both! 😊

[logan2z]

Another thought - I don't know what the stock situation is like in your part of the world, but here in the US there's a long waitlist for M-As - Leica doesn't produce that many per year. So, one option would be to buy a silver chrome M4 now and try it for a while.  If you like it, then you're done.  If the M4 doesn't satisfy you, then sell it and buy an M-A when one becomes available.  Given the rising price of Leica film cameras, it's likely you will at least break even on your M4.

Edited April 4, 2021 by logan2z

[gabrielaszalos]

9 hours ago, logan2z said:

Well, since this thread has established that three Leica film bodies is the ideal number, then the choice is clear - get both! 😊

I certainly would not afford getting both, and even if I did, I think it would be quite wasteful. 

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[kivis]

Used to own an M4 (and many other M's). Currently I have a recent CLA'd single stroke M3 I bought in the early 80"s, Chrome with a new skin complements and praise to Youxin Ye. A few months ago I bought a brand new new Black Chrome M-A. I own many 50mm lenses both Leica and Voigtlander. Both cameras are my absolute best friends, but the M-A is currently my "with me all the time" camera. I do not see that changing anytime soon.

[gabrielaszalos]

17 hours ago, pgk said:

I have an M4 (BP as it happens) that has been used and very heavily used indeed. It still works fine but I would not use it in any situation which required absolute reliability - its over 50 years old! An M-A makes better sense all ways around to me. But occaasionally very clean, little used M4 bodies do appear. If you are set on an M4 I would suggest that you buy a clean one and get a full CLA carried out on it by someone who knows what they are doing (which might take time and be messy depending on where they are located). This should give you a great, iconic, reliable camera for a decade or so (hopefully). Alternatively just accept that an M-A is a more logical and potentially far more reliable and repairable purchase.

Ok, so this is exactly my concern with the M4, and the reason I am now considering buying the M-A instead. We’ll see. I am going to decide by tomorrow. 

Thank you all for your input 🙏🏻