To old time users: M-A or M4?

[plaidshirts]

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11 hours ago, gabrielaszalos said:

When buying one of these older cameras, is it absolutely necessary to have them CLA’d even if they are in good condition? How can you tell it’s time for CLA? Sorry if it’s a stupid question 

Short answer is no. It all depends on condition and how it was used.

I’ve bought 4 old bodies over the years and got only one CLA’d as soon as I received it (it was an M4 and in clear need of repair). The other M2 and M3s were in very good physical condition and operated smoothly so I saw no need.

I still have the M2 and it’s still going strong - a button rewind no less.

[ktmrider2]

Of all the Leica film models I have used since 1975, I have only sent one in for a CLA.  It was an M2 made in 1958 and I sent it to Sherry in 2018.  I have owned both new and used cameras.  It comes down to the condition of the individual body.  My most recent film body was a M4 from 1975 and it is mint.  I have not even thought about sending it for service.  The films have been totally fine, not Pulitizer worthy but that is not the cameras fault. 

Sometimes I would like to blame the camera for the results I get but I don't honestly think I can.  My present dilemma is obsessing over which film Leica to take along on a Route 66 motorcycle trip in a few weeks-M2, M4 or 3f or digital with X100F or MP240.  I am leaning toward M4 with 35/90 or just 3f with 50 Summicron. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by ktmrider2

[roelandinho]

My M2 was not in the best shape when I bought it (the advance mechanism felt sloppy, the focusing patch had marks on it, the slow shutter speeds were not working, …) I sent it to Alan Starkie (Cameraworks-UK) and he completely overhauled the camera. He fixed the shutter and the advance mechanism, replaced the frame line mask with his own custom-made “free-to-air” mask, replaced the viewfinder windows with coated Schneider glass, refreshed the light seals and the strap lugs, added a new grippy vulcanite-like covering and repainted the camera in black paint. 
 

It took a long time (almost a year!) but this M2 now has the best-feeling mechanics of any camera I ever held. I currently own an M-A and have owned an MP and several other M2’s, but none of them felt as perfect as this one. Everything just feels more solid and smooth on this one. The shutter button is amazing, it makes the M-A’s and MP’s shutter buttons feel rough and crude. The viewfinder is now just as bright and contrasty as my newer cameras (and with the glorious M2 frame lines!) 

And most importantly: the pictures come out as expected. No scratches, the frames are evenly spaced, no light leaks, … Just perfect. 

Maybe this is an option for you. But it takes a little patience 🙂
 

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by roelandinho

[TheBestSLIsALeicaflex]

The frame lines of the older M's are more accurate, at least at the distances most people typically shoot.  When Leica added the 28mm frame line, they scrunched and narrowed the 50 and 35 to make room.  Ha, ha, at the time, they said they were doing it to account for slide film which took a bit of the edge away when slides were mounted.  Very clever explanation.  Anyway, I prefer the older M's for this reason.  

 

However, a modern M and 40mm lens (thanks Voigtlander !) would be a great solution for the narrowed 35mm frame line.  The rangefinder patch on a modern M (if my memory works correctly) tend to be more crisp.

Edited May 9, 2021 by TheBestSLIsALeicaflex

[andym91]

Tomorrow never comes 😉

M4 all the way 🍀

Good luck

andy

[ktmrider2]

I almost guarantee that if you purchase a classic film M body and hang onto it for six months and decide it is not for you, you will be able to sell it and perhaps make a profit (have you watched film camera prices recently, especially Leicas?).  You will not lose money.  I cannot say that about a new MP or MA simply because you will pay retail and when you go to sell it in six months it will be used and worth about 20% less.  Now if you hang onto the MP/MA for a few years, you will probably recover your initial investment.  Only you can decide if a "new" Leica MP or MA which uses very old technology is worth their asking price.

 

[IkarusJohn]

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After over 40 years of film cameras, my first Leica was an M9.

I missed film, and tried an MP (second hand) for a while, and never gelled with it.  Then found a 1961 vintage, single stroke M3 in Spain (chipped vulcanite, but apparently good working order) - had it sent directly to Leica for CLA and re-covering.  When it came to me, Leica commented that the viewfinder was delaminating and could not be repaired.  I quite enjoyed the camera, but the viewfinder was a pain - sold it.

My M9P sensor started to corrode so I discussed getting it repaired under warranty with Leica - in the end, they let me trade it in for a silver chrome M-A.  I run about a roll of film through a week (does that make my experience less valid?  I’ve always been tight with film - I don’t focus or exposure bracket, as I was taught by my father to get it right first time).  Initially, I used Tri-X; lately I’ve been experimenting with Adox 160 Scala B&W positive film, and enjoying the results.

I regularly use an M10-D, Monochrom & M-A, with a modest collection of M lenses (by this forum standards).

Good luck with your choice - my M-A hasn’t missed a beat.

Edited May 10, 2021 by IkarusJohn

[gabrielaszalos]

Actually I ended up buying these two babies: an M4 and an M3. They are bought in almost new-like condition, and have never been serviced. They are a little squeaky: the M3 has an non-dealbreaker issue with the bottom plate, shutter-shading at high speeds and a bit of a blurry viewfinder (some dirt is visible with light on the inside of the front of the rangefinder) and the M4’a rangefinder armature stopped bouncing back after being pushed down which is likely a lubrication problem. All these issues were not mentioned by the owner since he looked at it from a collector point of view so I used them to get part of my money back and take the risk because I suspect CLA will fix all of these issues. The M4 also has very little beginning of separation if you look very closely under the right angle, but the finder is super clean (comparing to MP).

I expect them to be CLA’d sometime end of June by KameraService NL. 

Thank you all for helping me decide. I am looking forward to using these. Especially the M3  

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[a.noctilux]

😇 Gabriel, you have some backups now.

[gabrielaszalos]

1 hour ago, a.noctilux said:

😇 Gabriel, you have some backups now.

Or some mains  We'll see after the CLA.

[jakontil]

Couple of weeks ago i was torn with M3 and M4, i too was looking for a backup film camera, but my backup has to be more reliable than my mains, because when the main fails, as its name, a backup, has to work flawlessly to keep the flow seamlessly 

considering their conditions, i ended up getting a used MA manufactured  in 2015

but my lust for M4 doesnt fade 🤣😂🤣😂 simply GAS

[a.noctilux]

Backup M 😉.

When I had my first M4 some decades ago, I  never thought of backup(s).

Only when the only M needed a repair ( in those days the common wait time was about 3-6 weeks ), without the Leica was so long that I searched

another M whichever one,... began the adventure.

🤑...

net result, I ended up over years and opportunities having quite large number of Leica M.

lastly, I had some older Leica Ms needing attention (repair or simply CLA but costy) after some uses, that it was time for me to use only the most reliable M.

 

Replacing with M-A was my best decision, these will become my last Leica M ticking most of my "lighter demands", even then thinking that "miracle"

will not last, my second M-A came as "backup" ( now the two are backup for each other ! )

In case of accident, I have other Ms (older) but till now never needed to use those backup of backup, my photography had changed.

End of story.

So long time ago !

Edited May 24, 2022 by a.noctilux

[jakontil]

Many people in the forum like arnaud and kivis to name the least haven influenced my decision to get the MA after having MP and M2R, getting more biased towards MA as one of the most robust and least problematic mechanics 

i realised i need a backup when my MP counter stopped working and have to send for service, while before that, the lightmeter never worked right off the box

[a.noctilux]

I still have my M first love (not the same unit though) calling M4 (working one black chrome one black paint), my last silver M4 ( to be repaired ) went to another user/repairer.

[cesc]

14 minutes ago, jakontil said:

Many people in the forum like arnaud and kivis to name the least haven influenced my decision to get the MA after having MP and M2R, getting more biased towards MA as one of the most robust and least problematic mechanics 

i realised i need a backup when my MP counter stopped working and have to send for service, while before that, the lightmeter never worked right off the box

Arnaud is kind of a guru for me. He has always took the time to give me his advices

 

I am looking too for a second M body, still making the decision for an new M-A or an M2, M4...CLAd of course. Nice to see you are going towards the M-A.

 

 

[a.noctilux]

Thanks Cesc.

I'm honored but nothing in my thinking as guru.

 

Only old experiences and old type of behaviors when things were made to last ( I admire and use Leica II from 1930's, ... one century old in a couple of years from now).

With time, I learned that not only one "machine" (not only in photography)  is to be used without  some attention from time to time.

As side note, I used to own ( and enjoy) mechanical highend-wrist-watches which cost fortune as maintenance, so I got rid of them quickly.

 

Coming to Leica, I see them as "tools" to create infinity of images and so pleasant to use, with effort and some knowledge to earn.

In my multiple M ( overtime, I used tens of them), only the canadian made Leica Ms (M4-2/P) can be called "no-maintenance-needed", even after rude use.

Great that these "lesser loved" were cheaper than most loved M, I bought them but never saw them as "ultimate M", strange.

Those M from Wetzlar are so smooth pleasure to use (and collect 😇).

 

[kivis]

As a new (about a year and a half) M-A owner have finally discovered how much I love shooting with a 35mm lens. Nonetheless I will never consider my M3 as a backup even though that is what it has become. Hush. My biggest decision I will have to make is when the day comes, will the M-A go into the coffin in my right hand or left? You get the idea. Yes I will be taking both of them with me. 🤪

[lmans]

The MA was designed using the best proven features from all previous Leica Film M’s. 

the funny thing is that Leica film cameras were not incrementally built upon with features ‘added to’ but instead each model added or subtracted features. While the general impression is that features were just added, that isn’t so . An example is the M2 which actually is a cheaper version of M3. But little things, and some unseen ( inners), differ.

So the MA was designed to ‘finally’ build a camera that benefited from past knowledge about what works best. The MA is the pinnacle of Leicas best, inside and outside. Older versions such as the M4 might be more appealing nostalgic wise only. 

The MA will last a lifetime starting ‘now’ while the M4 will last x number of years minus 40 or so. Do yourself a favor and if you can afford it, purchase a new or slightly used MA… for me, the best camera Leica has produced. 

[Anbaric]

16 minutes ago, lmans said:

The MA will last a lifetime starting ‘now’ while the M4 will last x number of years minus 40 or so.

[Citation needed]

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[wattsy]

10 minutes ago, lmans said:

The MA is the pinnacle of Leicas best, inside and outside. Older versions such as the M4 might be more appealing nostalgic wise only. 

The MA will last a lifetime starting ‘now’ while the M4 will last x number of years minus 40 or so.

I have two M-A cameras – I like them and they are my only film M bodies – but the M-A really isn't the "best, inside and outside". It's just a variation of the MP. In fact, identical to the MP Classic (limited run of meterless MP camera sets sold by Schmidt Marketing in Hong Kong) bar the film reminder disc and paint finish. It has the same cost cut parts (plastic film counter gears, etc.) that all modern Leica bodies have had and built using the same production line techniques developed in the post M4 era. A properly serviced M2/3/4 will easily last a lifetime (especially considering the average age of members here) and, I'd wager, outlast most M-A or MP cameras.