Nicht immer nur Kaviar ... (English Version)

[willeica]

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3 hours ago, pgk said:

I remember using one of those! Fascinating idea but it didn't catch on.

I have the more modern Nikkor 45mm f2.8 P lens. It is excellent. It has a peculiar looking 'reversed' hood which looks wrong, but works very well. It also helps to keep your fingers out of the way of the lens front. I tried to find one before I went to the Middle East, but they were very scarce back them. When I came back, my local Nikon dealer offered me one, provided I bought the FM3A to which it was attached. I was very pleased to acquire both of them, the last fully manual camera made by Nikon and the little gem of a lens.

William

[pgk]

10 hours ago, willeica said:

I have the more modern Nikkor 45mm f2.8 P lens.

Apparently a modified Tessar design (https://imaging.nikon.com/history/story/0078/index.htm). The 45mm GN featured a Guide Number coupling system for use with manual flash - info can be read here: https://lens-db.com/nikon-gn-auto-nikkor-c-45mm-f28-1968/

[nitroplait]

Among all the swiftly raising prices of film equipment, it is nice to find things of high quality and reputation that remains at a reasonable price level: Objects that one can buy out of simple curiosity without too much consideration for how or if they will hold value etc.

Today I found this Nikkor-P 10.5cm 1:2.5 (right) at my local camera shop.
I already own and love my Nikkor 105mm/1:2.5 Ai - Xenotar-type (left), but I have often wondered how it's predecessor - the  Sonnar-type (right) performs in comparison.
Luckily these lenses are still very affordable in both versions, and there wasn't a need for much consideration when I noticed this old (early 60's) lens in the window of my local camera shop.

There will hopefully be enough light outside during the holidays to do some side-by-side comparison.

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[thomas_schertel]

Exa with Meyer lenses

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Yours sincerely
Thomas

[zeitz]

3 hours ago, nitroplait said:

how it's predecessor - the  Sonnar-type (right) performs in comparison

The 105mm f2.5 Sonnar type is a great lens.  Some say it was this lens in particular, in S mount, that got Nikon noticed.  It was the first lens I bought for my Nikon F.  I still own it, modified for Ai, and use it occasionally.  I think it is better than the 105mm f1.8 AiS lens.

[wlaidlaw]

I have a 105mm Nikkor-P in LTM and it is a good lens and light enough to balance on say a IIIg. I use a TEWE zoom finder, that is much better than the Russian KMZ finder, I first tried with it. The only real difference from a modern computed lens is in field curvature, where some is detectable, against say my 90mm/f2.8 Elmarit-M 11807, where I can detect none at all. 

Wilson

[zeitz]

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2 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I have a 105mm Nikkor-P in LTM and it is a good lens

A quote about David Douglas Duncan from Nikon's website - https://www.nikon.com/about/corporate/history/oneminutestory/1950_nikkor/

“In 1950, an encounter took place that immensely changed the fate of Nikon and NIKKOR lenses. At the beginning of June that year, David Douglas Duncan, who was a LIFE magazine photographer, Horace Bristol, a Fortune magazine photographer and Japanese photographer Jun Miki visited the Ohi Plant of Nikon Corporation (Nippon Kogaku K.K. at that time). What had prompted their visit was Mr. Duncan’s portrait taken by Jun Miki, who was then the only Japanese LIFE photographer with a NIKKOR P.C 8.5cm f/2 lens. Mr. Duncan was so surprised by its sharpness that he suggested visiting Nikon Corporation, arranging it with a single phone call that would ultimately have great consequences."

further

"The following day, Mr. Miki visited the Ohi Plant of Nippon Kogaku K.K. (the current Nikon Corporation) along with Mr. Duncan and Horace Bristol from FORTUNE magazine. While there, they compared NIKKOR lenses with those made by Leitz, and Zeiss lenses, which were carried by Mr. Duncan and Mr. Bristol at that time, by using a projection inspection instrument. Directly after they realized the outstanding performance of NIKKOR lenses, they purchased them for their Leica cameras on the spot.
When the Korean War broke out on June 25, 1950, Mr. Duncan traveled to the battlefront carrying two Leica cameras equipped with Nikkor 50mm F1.5 and 135mm F4 lenses.
Looking at his magnificent photographs, TIME's LIFE magazine HQ was asking, "What kind of equipment do you use?" and "Which lenses do you use?" So Mr. Duncan informed them "It was a NIKKOR".  From that time, American photographers started purchasing NIKKOR lenses and Nikon cameras. Nippon Kogaku provided free 24-hour cleaning of the cameras belonging to photographers returning from the front lines to the Tokyo Press Club, regardless of the brand of camera."

The event was reported by the New York Times.  Nikkor lenses (50mm, 85mm, 105mm and 135mm) may not have been superior, but from that point on they became legendary.

[pgk]

Kaviar certainly. Grubb 1860s Patent stereo lens of 3 3/4" focal length and designed to cover 3" x 3" (approx 75mm x 75mm), mounted onto an LTM Periflex extension tub, in turn  mounted onto E. Leitz New York COOMI Micrometer Extension Tube, with LTM to M adapter, M to L adapter and finally all fitted onto a Leica SL body (phew). The Grubb lens thread is close to but not quite Leica LTM but will screw in well enough. Results can be surprisingly effective and the lens, whilst not as sharp as might be desired today, is no slouch either. These lenses were hand ground and assembled in Dublin and represented the state-of-the-art photographic lenses at the time they were made.

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Edited December 26, 2021 by pgk

[pippy]

Nice - if a tad...erm...unusual-looking(?) - rig, Paul! Good image as well. Have you tried it for pictorial work at smaller apertures? Does the lens have an aperture to adjust? Waterhouse Stops? Very interesting piece of kit and congrats on getting it to work!

I'm trying to imagine, somewhere in a parallel universe, a mix between your post and that of Zeitz (immediately above) where DDD was asked by the editor of Time LIFE about his kit and he replied;

"...A Grubb 1860s Patent stereo lens of 3 3/4" focal length mounted onto an LTM Periflex extension tub mounted onto E. Leitz New York COOMI Micrometer Extension Tube, with LTM to M adapter, M to L adapter...all fitted onto a Leica SL body..."......

Philip.

[pgk]

9 minutes ago, pippy said:

Nice - if a tad...erm...unusual-looking(?) - rig, Paul! Good image as well. Have you tried it for pictorial work at smaller apertures? Does the lens have an aperture to adjust? Waterhouse Stops? 

Its a visually interesting set-up! Image 'quality' can be surprisingly good. Basic problem is flare (often a centralised flarey cloud) - I will probably need to use a bellows hood and custom cut-out in front to absolutely minimise stray light. It works ok for pictorial work but I've only just got it set up so that it is easy to use so I haven't had chance to try it as much as I would like. It uses washer stops which fit into the 'hood' arragement in front of the single (doublet) patent lens. I have two but will make more. Distortion and curved field are the undesirable characteristics, but for an early lens it is very good. It was the smalest lens made by Thomas Grubb (3 3/4" focal length) although I have a smaller, sligtly longer 4 1/2" Aplanatic Doublet made by his Son in the 1890s which I am trying to adapt too plus others. The basic problem with all these lenses is that they were designed to cover much larger format (sometimes massive, I have a lens to cover 12" x 10", William has a larger one) and shooting film at these sizes is anything but cheap today.

Most people don't ask about the technicalities fortunately.

There are still a few early lenses to be bought at fairly low prices (anything is low compared to Leica!). and makers such as Ross, Dallmeyer and slightly later, Wray, TTH, etc., are well represented in the market. For use the smaller stereo lenses are most useful and may make good 'portrait' lenses even today.

Edited December 27, 2021 by pgk

[pippy]

34 minutes ago, pgk said:

......It uses washer stops which fit into the 'hood' arragement in front of the single (doublet) patent lens. I have two but will make more. Distortion and curved field are the undesirable characteristics, but for an early lens it is very good...

......There are still a few early lenses to be bought at fairly low prices (anything is low compared to Leica!). and makers such as Ross, Dallmeyer and slightly later, Wray, TTH, etc., are well represented in the market. For use the smaller stereo lenses are most useful and may make good 'portrait' lenses even today...

Interesting! Is diffraction much of an issue when using Washer Stops or are the aperture 'holes' machined in such a way as to minimise edge-thickness? I've only used a few 'Victorian Era' lenses (an old friend had three Gandolfis) but from a much later period and they all had multi-blade diaphraghms fitted. Not sure if the lenses were 'all-original' or had been modified.

In terms of availability I know that MW Classic Cameras in London has usually got a range of 19th C. lenses in stock ranging from the dirt-cheap to the rare and fairly valuable. Lovely things...

Philip.

[pgk]

6 minutes ago, pippy said:

Interesting! Is diffraction much of an issue when using Washer Stops or are the aperture 'holes' machined in such a way as to minimise edge-thickness?

Diffraction is always an issue! The machining is superb and although the washers are old penny sizedish but thinner, the hole is bevelled. This is more obvious on the larger lenses.

I have a TTH Cooke from the early 1890s but beware that many of these lenses equipped with aperture diaphragms, which only became viable to a significant extent in the late 1880s/1890s, can be very stiff in operation and will require a service - I use Newton & Ellis in Liverpool who will still do such things. Photographic fairs are (ell were) a great hunting ground and bargains are still around. The Lens Vade Mecum is worth downloading if you don't have a copy. If you pm me yur email I'll send some other info through.

[Pyrogallol]

I have a couple of older lenses to use with my Edwardian half plate cameras.

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[pgk]

8 minutes ago, Pyrogallol said:

I have a couple of older lenses to use with my Edwardian half plate cameras.

Back when I was a student I used to use an MTF rig made by the descendant of Beck. Amazingly, they still exist: https://www.beckoptronic.com/history-approach/

[pgk]

On 12/26/2021 at 2:33 PM, pgk said:

Grubb 1860s Patent stereo lens .....  Leica SL body.

Old lens and 'old treatment'( Victorian) - one from this afternoon. Subject movement and softer corners are fairly inevitable with such lenses but even here the image is enlarged far beyond the original requirements of its prints (2 x 3" x 3")

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Edited December 27, 2021 by pgk

[willeica]

4 hours ago, pippy said:

Interesting! Is diffraction much of an issue when using Washer Stops or are the aperture 'holes' machined in such a way as to minimise edge-thickness? I've only used a few 'Victorian Era' lenses (an old friend had three Gandolfis) but from a much later period and they all had multi-blade diaphraghms fitted. Not sure if the lenses were 'all-original' or had been modified.

In terms of availability I know that MW Classic Cameras in London has usually got a range of 19th C. lenses in stock ranging from the dirt-cheap to the rare and fairly valuable. Lovely things...

Philip.

Philip

Paul and I are both avid collectors and users of Grubb lenses. They were made about 3 or 4 miles away from where I live and I have brought Paul on a tour of the locations where the factories were here in Dublin and also where the Grubbs lived. I have 8 Grubb lenses (6 by Thomas and 3 by his son Howard) and Paul has easily that many again, so between us we have between 10 to 15% of the known surviving lenses (134 in total) , which is pretty good for collecting in any field. I have a long term project to take photos of the parts of Dublin where the Grubbs lived with one of their lenses. I had hoped to do this in 5x4, but that has been knocked aside by Covid and the need to have access to craftsmen and other facilities available. I have taken photos with a small Grubb Ax lens handheld at the front of a Leitz bellows and the quality is superb. I did not notice any flare or distortion and edge sharpness did not seem to be an issue. What is most important is that the lens produced images with character. I can see that same character in Paul's great photo of a Christmas Tree decoration above. 

What is more important is what were the lenses like when used back in the mid 19th Century? I have recently come across over 80 waxed 10x8 calotypes made by Thomas Grubb about 170 years ago c 1850-1853. They are of stunning quality and I am currently trying to ensure that the calotypes go into a 'safe harbour' with a view to having an exhibition of them here in Dublin, during my lifetime. I will PM you a sample that I snapped with an iPhone and you will see what I mean. I have also had the geometry set of Thomas Grubb in my hands - can you imagine having the geometry set of Barnack or Berek in your hands? I found two beaten up prints made by Thomas Grubb in the 1850s which appeared in the London Society Photographic Exhibition of 1857. On the back of one of the prints, Thomas Grubb had written (his handwriting was very distinctive and I have other examples) that the railings in front of Trinity College Dublin, which was the subject of the image, were curved. The reason why he did that was because at that time he had applied for a patent for his Aplanatic lens design and had claimed that the design produced distortion free images. He got his patent a few months later.

The Grubb lenses that I have are superb optics and the construction quality of the lens mounts and barrels etc is outstanding. In fact I think I can say that no other lenses that I have used or handled have the same construction quality. That is not just including the brass lenses, the aluminium lens which I posted here a few weeks ago is of a similar outstanding construction quality. 

William 

[pgk]

1 hour ago, willeica said:

I did not notice any flare or distortion and edge sharpness did not seem to be an issue. What is most important is that the lens produced images with character. I can see that same character in Paul's great photo of a Christmas Tree decoration above.

Nineteenth century lenses were never intended to be used on 24MPixel cameras and Pixelpeeped😉. I'm amazed that they will perform anywhere near as good as they do when they are stressed this much. Older lenses should be used to their strengths - something true of older Leica and other lenses. Their character can then be properly explored and exploited.

[willeica]

1 hour ago, pgk said:

Nineteenth century lenses were never intended to be used on 24MPixel cameras and Pixelpeeped😉. I'm amazed that they will perform anywhere near as good as they do when they are stressed this much. Older lenses should be used to their strengths - something true of older Leica and other lenses. Their character can then be properly explored and exploited.

There is more to liking a photo than counting the number of pixels. I often prefer the images from less sharp lenses which have character. Heresy I know in this era of digi-imaging and pixel counting, but we are all allowed to have our own preferences. That said, would you know, if I did not tell you, that this photo was taken with a lens which was manufactured on 23rd January, 1875?

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The lens was handheld at the front of a bellows, which was used to achieve focus. 

William

 

 

[Ambro51]

I’ve used a LOT of different brand period brass lenses as both a Wet Plate photographer and a camera builder.  Without doubt, the highest quality, most impressively constructed lenses I came across were made by Palmer and Longking, and a Willard.   Both c. 1860

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[Ambro51]

BTW, petzval lenses were usually constructed so they could be easily converted to “landscape lenses”. This was simply a matter of unscrewing the lens from the flange mounted on the camera, unscrewing and stowing away the rear element and its cell.  The front lens hood is then unscrewed, and stowed away.  The front element, which is a longer focus cemented Plano convex achromat, is, with its cell, screwed into the rear position of the lens barrel. ( with the curved convex element toward the plate.  Screw the barrel back onto the camera, and insert a Waterhouse stop about 1/3 the lens diameter into the slot••••••. Now the lens works at about f14 and you lose ALL that petzval bokeh and vignetting.  Your focal length is increased....pull the bellows out further, and you’ll see Pin Sharp corner to corner coverage.  There’s not too much extra exposure, not unmanageable.  That’s how I’d pull group shot whole plate negs of lines of troops.  All sharp.  Dont underestimate the ability of the single achromat to form a perfect image.  Most stereo cameras of that era relied on them. The stop in front of the lens, usually placed one lens diameter in front, is the key.  Take it down fo f64 if you like..... I’d put That image up against any modern lens for sharpness.  

Edited December 28, 2021 by Ambro51