Is the M10-R a Success?

[Guest Nowhereman]

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1 hour ago, Steven said:

...t's a bit "tarte à la crème" to say that we never need anything more, that everything is already great, that those who need more are not real photographers..... Someone can translate "tarte a la creme" please ? 

 "It's a bit of a pie in the sky to say that we don't need anything more, that everything is already great..."?

Incidentally, I'm skeptical about the claims that the M10-R has greater dynamic range than the M10. The dynamic range graphs on the photonstophotos.net website show that the two cameras have almost identical dynamic range, which is actually quite an achievement for a 40 MP camera with smaller pixel size.

My feeling is that something else is at play here: while the dynamic range from the two cameras is about the same, the distribution of that range between the highlight and dark tones differers; so that the M10 raw files have a contrast curve that has less of that distribution in the highlights and more in the dark tones, while the M10-R has more in the highlights and less in the dark tones. That makes it seem that the highlights are easier to deal with with the M10-R (which gives the feeling of better dynamic range), while there is more shadow recovery in the M10. 
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

[LBJ2]

20 hours ago, jplomley said:

...or did Leica get it wrong? I'm not hearing a lot of fanfare on this 40 MP variant, and certainly not many users on this forum waxing lyrical. Even the number of posted images from the camera is rather dismal. My local dealer informs the M10M is easily outselling the M10-R. Not to mention the M10-R introduction by Leica was very low key, as if they did not want anyone to notice 🙂

So, did they miss the mark completely? And what does this mean for the M11? Curious to hear the forum feedback! 

 

 

It is interesting your local dealer is reporting what some consider a niche of a niche M10-M is easily outselling the M10-R. What city is your local dealer? 

[jplomley]

3 hours ago, LBJ2 said:

It is interesting your local dealer is reporting what some consider a niche of a niche M10-M is easily outselling the M10-R. What city is your local dealer? 

Camtec Photo in Montréal. 

[Good To Be Retired]

I certainly hope so.  I hope it's unpopular commercially and lots of people buy one and are so disappointed they sell bodies with 500 actuations on eBay at a drastically discounted price.

As I hate to see somebody drop money on something they're not happy with I'm going to volunteer to buy it. :)

[adan]

13 hours ago, Steven said:

Don't mean to be rude to any of you, but that's actually to me a very strange way to think. 

Yes, you can take great photos with way older cameras, but why not embrace progress?

You did notice this is the M-System forum?

Which means it is made up of people who have been rejecting "progress" since about 1960. No!! - to SLRs, longer lenses, autoexposure (until this millennium), PASM dials, autofocus. Sometimes even No!! to digital (since Leica still sells the MP and M-A).

You might read up on Mr. Toad. A character from The Wind in the Willows. Who always tended to chase after the "next big thing" - to the point of stealing an automobile once he discovered them (it is a 1908 book). A sadly-comic little fellow, to be pitied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mr._Toad

[Kwesi]

On 2/9/2021 at 7:05 PM, jplomley said:

...or did Leica get it wrong? I'm not hearing a lot of fanfare on this 40 MP variant, and certainly not many users on this forum waxing lyrical. Even the number of posted images from the camera is rather dismal. My local dealer informs the M10M is easily outselling the M10-R. Not to mention the M10-R introduction by Leica was very low key, as if they did not want anyone to notice 🙂

So, did they miss the mark completely? And what does this mean for the M11? Curious to hear the forum feedback! 

 

 

I believe by Leica standards its been a success.

It has allowed them to sell more M10-P's bodies during a worldwide lockdown than they would have otherwise by simply putting a new sensor into an existing body. Its notable that they didn't offer a sensor upgrade to existing owners. I wouldn't be surprised if when the M11 arrives the remaining M10R bodies morph into the M10E.

[SJH]

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I upgraded my M10 to and M10R and have to say that I’m delighted with it, good ISO performance for a high resolution sensor (better than the SL2 I had) and very useful for a) cropping when needed b) as a result not needing to take as many lenses which is refreshing.

Funny enough with the SL2 I went the other way and traded it for an SL2-S which I personally think is the better of the two bodies for my needs. So far I think Leica have done a better job with the 40mb M sensor than the SL2’s 47mb and I wish they’d put that in the SL. As time went on I was less impressed with the the SL2 regarding the battery issues, high ISO and AF performance - the SL2-S is actually a step up under all of these categories!! The M10R to my mind is definitely a step up from the M10 so well worth it for me, I do though tend to shoot at 1/250 more often now though!!

[newtoleica]

I have a Q2. I could see the advantage of the Q2 over the Q. For the M10, I think the sweet spot is the 10-P or 10-D. I just swapped my P for the D and I have to say that is a camera I am going to keep for a very long time. I like it as much as my film Leicas.

[John Miranda]

Having upgraded my M10 to an M10-R, I am pleased with the additional resolution and ability to crop, as well as better control of highlights.  So for one buyer at least, Leica generated incremental revenue.

I also own an M10-M, and appreciate the consistency of having two cameras of the same resolution.  

Is the M10-R a success for Leica?  One could ask the opposite question, if Leica opted not to have released the M10-R even as other makers continue upping resolution, would the opposite question have been asked about Leica as a company, brand concerns raised (fair or not) on the notion that they are increasingly 'falling behind'?

I think competitively, Leica had to release something akin to the M10-R, and having done so with overall positive press reviews during an uncertain time (COVID), seems like success to me, regardless of one's resolution needs.

 

[digger1914]

I am more than happy with my M10-P.  I did get an M10M however, and it is getting plenty of loving at the moment.  I appreciate the extra sensor size there, but think 24 meg is plenty of resolution for colour.

I would consider the higher resolution down the track, but see no reason to change yet.

 

Cheers

[fotografr]

On 2/9/2021 at 6:05 PM, jplomley said:

...or did Leica get it wrong? I'm not hearing a lot of fanfare on this 40 MP variant, and certainly not many users on this forum waxing lyrical. Even the number of posted images from the camera is rather dismal. My local dealer informs the M10M is easily outselling the M10-R. Not to mention the M10-R introduction by Leica was very low key, as if they did not want anyone to notice 🙂

So, did they miss the mark completely? And what does this mean for the M11? Curious to hear the forum feedback! 

 

 

The Leica dealer I work with most told me there hasn't been nearly as much interest in the M10-R as there was for the initial M10. He speculated that it's because there just isn't a big enough difference to make people jump. I tend to agree. I just don't find myself longing for more than 24 MP.

[jplomley]

41 minutes ago, fotografr said:

The Leica dealer I work with most told me there hasn't been nearly as much interest in the M10-R as there was for the initial M10. He speculated that it's because there just isn't a big enough difference to make people jump. I tend to agree. I just don't find myself longing for more than 24 MP.

I find a big difference in sensor performance. Colour casts from my 21 SEM and 28 Cron Asph v2. are finally eliminated, and the corners are sharper then I ever saw on either of my M10's. Flesh tones are more neutral (magenta/reddish hue is gone). Highlight recovery is notably improved, and the ability to print 16x24 at 360ppi rather than 240ppi means I'm at the native resolution of my Epson. This results in a significant improvement in print quality, particularly for images with fine detail. The M10-R with Epson's Exhibition Fiber media is simply incredible to behold. Overall, I see an improved roundness to the images that easily rivals MF.

Finally, all of my lenses seem to exhibit improved rendering. Notably, my 35 Lux FLE which was always "harsh" on my M10's, draws beautifully smooth on the M10-R. The resolution is still there in spades, but it is not "brittle", it has a film like smoothness reminiscent of the drum scans I used to do. 

The only caveat is working the files in LR. The M10-R files really slow the program down, whereas images from my SL2 are handled with ease. Makes no sense based on pixel count, so there is obviously something else at play with the M10-R files. 

Edited February 13, 2021 by jplomley

[fotografr]

5 hours ago, jplomley said:

I find a big difference in sensor performance. Colour casts from my 21 SEM and 28 Cron Asph v2. are finally eliminated, and the corners are sharper then I ever saw on either of my M10's. Flesh tones are more neutral (magenta/reddish hue is gone). Highlight recovery is notably improved, and the ability to print 16x24 at 360ppi rather than 240ppi means I'm at the native resolution of my Epson. This results in a significant improvement in print quality, particularly for images with fine detail. The M10-R with Epson's Exhibition Fiber media is simply incredible to behold. Overall, I see an improved roundness to the images that easily rivals MF.

Finally, all of my lenses seem to exhibit improved rendering. Notably, my 35 Lux FLE which was always "harsh" on my M10's, draws beautifully smooth on the M10-R. The resolution is still there in spades, but it is not "brittle", it has a film like smoothness reminiscent of the drum scans I used to do. 

The only caveat is working the files in LR. The M10-R files really slow the program down, whereas images from my SL2 are handled with ease. Makes no sense based on pixel count, so there is obviously something else at play with the M10-R files. 

Those reasons would probably be enough to make me go from my M10-P to the M10-R if I was exhibiting or shooting for a living. Since the vast majority of my work now just ends up on the internet, I'd need more substantial improvements to make me switch.

Some of the differences you mention would appear to be issues that Leica could resolve with a firmware update.

[John Miranda]

44 minutes ago, fotografr said:

Those reasons would probably be enough to make me go from my M10-P to the M10-R if I was exhibiting or shooting for a living. Since the vast majority of my work now just ends up on the internet, I'd need more substantial improvements to make me switch.

Some of the differences you mention would appear to be issues that Leica could resolve with a firmware update.

You have outstanding photography on your website, really enjoyed "No Direction Known"...

[adan]

On 2/9/2021 at 5:05 PM, jplomley said:

...or did Leica get it wrong?

 Who knows? Leica doesn't publicize sales statistics.

The supply seems to be adequate to the demand - it is "in stock" at most places I've checked.

One presumes that those who wept and wailed about needing to make BIG prints (or crop a lot) put their money where their mouth was.

Technically, it seems to function. It appears to do better than the "straight" M10 regarding highlights and DR in general, and modestly better in ISO.

Some samples here indicate it certainly hasn't sacrificed much (except maybe shooting speed?) to get the extra Mpixels. Tones and colors look quite good. I'm more in the market for a hypothetical M10-S (with SL2-S sensor), and not rushing to upgrade. But when the time comes, I'll see what is actually available, at which size and price.

 

[astrostl]

53 minutes ago, adan said:

One presumes that those who wept and wailed about needing to make BIG prints (or crop a lot) put their money where their mouth was.

One also presumes that folks can be interested in resolution w/o weeping or wailing, but heaven forbid we have differences w/o personal judgement right?

I'm still on a base M10 Leica-wise, but I'd say that I most-appreciate the 50MP my Hasselblad 907X offers because almost all of my image viewing is on a 5k iMac monitor (and will surely only get higher-res in future devices). Cropping would be second, and I do particularly enjoy XPan-style 2.7:1 crops. I rarely print, and only 13x19 at the largest. But if I were buying a new M today, I would default to getting an M10-R for the same reasons cited on the 907X.

[setuporg]

On 2/9/2021 at 4:05 PM, jplomley said:

not many users on this forum waxing lyrical

We are happy being in nirvana.  The camera does everything we want, and there's no possibly a better camera, so writing here becomes unnecessary.  If you get it, you'll understand and stop asking too.:)

[setuporg]

On a slightly more serious note, I shot with M10 since its release and upgraded to M10R almost as soon as it came out.  I skipped the P as a gimmick not worth the $3-4K difference.  And the R is much more worth the difference between M10/M10P and M10R.

The blown highlights, the Achilles foot of Leica, are gone.

The exposure is much more on the nose out of the box.  

There's absolutely no downside.  The Leica look is more pronounced and various transitions are subtle and gracious, reminding me of the S system.  The sensor is apparently of the same kind used in S3.

Sorry to say so, but the M10 and M10P holdouts trying to reassure themselves that their generation is enough is just like any talk here -- anger, denial, bargaining, and acceptance is coming soon.

Edited February 14, 2021 by setuporg

[Guest]

11 hours ago, adan said:

.............Some samples here indicate it certainly hasn't sacrificed much (except maybe shooting speed?) to get the extra Mpixels. Tones and colors look quite good. I'm more in the market for a hypothetical M10-S (with SL2-S sensor), and not rushing to upgrade. But when the time comes, I'll see what is actually available, at which size and price..........

 

I concur.......As I said before I did try a R for a week, but found that for me and my M usage it wasn't worth the cost to upgrade from my 24mp M's, I also experienced some of the problems that Steven reported having in that a faster shutter speed was required to eliminate camera shake when hand held,, ( why would you put an M on a tripod? ). So if one fell from the sky for free I certainly wouldn't kick it to the kerb, but all in all I felt it wasn't worth the financial hit. My 24mp M's produce excellent prints to A2 and larger, have good DR and ISO capability and so far I've not seen any examples of work with the R, mine and others, that demonstrate the need for me  to upgrade the pixel count. I still feel that 24mp is the sweet-spot and easily good enough for me to continue to use my existing M's and not fret about what the latest iteration could offer.........................BUT as adan remarks here a hypothetical M10-S with the SL2-S sensor would be something that would grab my attention.

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[Guest]

4 hours ago, setuporg said:

Sorry to say so, but the M10 and M10P holdouts trying to reassure themselves that their generation is enough is just like any talk here -- anger, denial, bargaining, and acceptance is coming soon.

"Sorry to say", but that's BS. We all evaluate our needs differently and that should be respected. I'm sure that you would have voiced the same opinion when the 18Mp M9 was superseded by the 24Mp M's. There's the slippery slope of upgrading to the newest and shiniest. I do not consider myself and perhaps others as "holdouts" just because I have chosen to keep to the 24mp M's rather than jump to the R. I evaluated the R in a real world trial and found that for me it wasn't worth the change-up performance wise and yes financially too which whilst that's not an impediment to some it's a real-world consideration to others.