Is the M10-R a Success?

[Jeff S]

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Just now, setuporg said:

More power to it then!  I've not said that M10R will be the most successful M of all times, only that it has been the most meaningful and probably successful upgrades in the M10 line.  Surely major numbers will be substantial changes.  But if the original question was the success of M10R, it deserves one much more than the P, and has a reasonable timeframe to achieve it.

You called it “legendary even”.  
 

Only Leica can know sales goals and success relative to other M10 models.  I would imagine that the Monochrom has been more of a success story, let alone the original M10 or P variant.

Jeff

[setuporg]

There's no P in legendary, but there's an R!

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[Jeff S]

Leica killed the real R.  
 

I bet you move beyond the hyphenated R before 4 years.
 

Or, if you think it’s truly legendary, you’ll spend $3-4k more for the R-P version.  🤪
 

Jeff

[Al Brown]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

That’s to be argued. Some will say it’s the M6. 
i say it’s the M10P. 

Absolutely nothing to be argued. Specs wise the M10R is the best digital M Leica on paper on today's date. Many improvements over M10/P.

Edited February 15, 2021 by Al Brown

[Jeff S]

3 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

Absolutely nothing to be argued. Specs wise the M10R is the best digital M Leica on paper on today's date. Many improvements over M10/P.

M10 Monochrom has higher effective resolution and better high ISO performance.

Jeff

[Al Brown]

Just now, Jeff S said:

M10 Monochrom has higher effective resolution and better high ISO performance.

M10M is a niche camera.

[Jeff S]

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14 minutes ago, Al Brown said:

M10M is a niche camera.

You wrote best digital M on paper. Last I checked, it was a digital M, all niche. I wouldn’t be surprised if it has outsold the R in the same timeframe after launch.

Jeff

 

[setuporg]

2 hours ago, Jeff S said:

I bet you move beyond the hyphenated R before 4 years.
Or, if you think it’s truly legendary, you’ll spend $3-4k more for the R-P version.  🤪

I can hardly stay out of it for a year...  But R gives a peace of mind.  R-P will be a pass as all Ps if they simply change decor, but R-D, now that would be cool!

[Guest]

Well the good thing about the fact there seems to be more than a few people around with the whims and the funds to keep buying the latest and greatest Leica every year or so either to actually or just to dust it off on a trophy shelf now and again is that money will continue to flow towards Wetzlar and should, hopefully, help to keep their parts and service department ticking over for us lesser mortals who have to keep their old and orphaned cameras limping along in ignominy .

[Guest]

well my last posting above was edited clumsily and I realised too late to correct it, the hazard of the Return Key..........I meant to say :

".................and greatest Leica every year or so either to actually use or just to dust it off on a trophy shelf now and again....."

Edited February 15, 2021 by petermullett

[budjames]

This thread is becoming intense. I'm going out to create images with my M10-R while my M10-P sits on my shelf.

Regards,
Bud James

Please check out my fine art and travel photography at www.budjames.photography or on Instagram at www.instagram.com/budjamesphoto

[crf59]

17 hours ago, setuporg said:

 

It's important to distinguish between the newest and the shiniest.  The M9 was a quantum leap over M8 because of the return to the FF format and more than half a century heritage in lens art and tradition.  The X1D was a quantum leap over FF into consumer MF space and we have such fantastic developments as GFX100S and 907x.  Some advances change photography quite radically.

As far as this forum goes, the most baffling era to me was the M10P vs M10.  People seriously paid $4K difference for an upgrade that did not affect image quality in any way, unless you consider startling strangers with a louder shutter as having a material impact on IQ. And a touch screen, which is barely useful on an M. Yeah, you can move the exposure adjustment with your finger now.  Awesome.

So after essentially 3 years of choosing between the two, the M10R arrives with substantial improvements to image quality -- both in resolution, but also in automatic exposure.

Yes, it might be due to a variety of adjustments, both the sensor and the DNG curve, but the result is clearly very simply less blown highlights SOOC, better DR as seen by the eye, and thus the whole experience of photography becomes more seamless and enjoyable.  Leica gets out of the way -- fewer buttons, and now fewer noise to worry about.  This is what makes the M10R the most important upgrade of the M line so far, IMHO.

Just a note that my M10-P cost me exactly $832 more than the standard M10 would have at my dealer (both new). So don't know where you got $4k from. So I suppose you would also berate people for buying a Monochrom which is also more expensive? I can buy any camera I want and don't need someone else's approval to do so. Your opinion is exactly that and your grating approach is tiresome. Nobody is criticizing the R, but your approach seems to be to call everyone who bought a P an idiot. Don't be so insecure, nobody cares that you bought the R.

[Steven]

8 hours ago, setuporg said:

I have not looked for blur, but I get as sharp or better images for all handheld shots.  I'm able to get decent shots as low as 1/10s with many systems because I hold them steady.  I'll pay more attention to what happens below 1/125s but it has not been any kind of red flag or gotcha so far, so probably it's a deal breaker.  Again I respect individual observations.  (It's probably anger at the blur.:)

Hahaha why do you absolutely want to make us angry people 😂 

[Steven]

7 hours ago, Al Brown said:

Absolutely nothing to be argued. Specs wise the M10R is the best digital M Leica on paper on today's date. Many improvements over M10/P.

The question was not "what's the highest spec'd M ever built, but what's the best M to be ever built". Let's see which one between the M6 and the M10R is remembered in 5 years. Or less. 

 

26 minutes ago, crf59 said:

So don't know where you got $4k from.

I think he meant if you had upgraded from an M10 to an M10P. Of course, if you're new in the market it's better to buy the P than the M. That being said, I disagree with the poster that the P is a very very tiny upgrade and pure aesthetics. 

I would pay the extra premium in a heartbeat for the P over the regular one. 

[Guest Nowhereman]

32 minutes ago, Steven said:

...I would pay the extra premium in a heartbeat for the P over the regular one. 

For the looks or for the functions? 

For functions, the only ones I can think of are the quieter shutter and the horizontal level function (whatever it's called). As you know, I have a plain-jane M10, whose shutter is quiet enough for me, and the horizontal level doesn't interest me because it's not in the optical viewfinder but only works in Live View, which I don't use in the "heat of battle" (immediacy of shooting) — but for the latter, don't tell me that I need the M10-D. 😀

For the looks, the only thing that bothers me about the M10 is the red Leica logo disk on the front, which I take care of by covering with a piece of black electrical tape.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

Edited February 15, 2021 by Nowhereman

[Steven]

8 minutes ago, Nowhereman said:

For the looks or for the functions? 

For functions, the only ones I can think of are the quieter shutter and the horizontal level function (whatever it's called). As you know, I have a plain-jane M10, whose shutter is quiet enough for me, and the horizontal level doesn't interest me because it's not in the optical viewfinder but only works in Live View, which I don't use in the "heat of battle" (immediacy of shooting) — but for the latter, don't tell me that I need the M10-D. 😀

For the looks, the only thing that bothers me about the M10 is the red Leica logo disk on the front, which I take care of by covering with a piece of black electrical tape.
________________________
Frog Leaping photobook

While the looks of the M10P is much nicer, I referred indeed to the quiet shutter. I think it's an irreversible progress. You can live with it when you havent tried it, but once you've used it, it's hard to go back. 

As for the D... ahhhhh! this is going to be a complicated story for me. I love mine when I used it. And when I use my M10P, I ask myself how I could ever, or why I would ever, use the D. And then I use the D again, and here we go... I love it. 

[junix]

My personal view on OP question (just to get slightly back on topic..)..

I think the M10-R was a success because with minimal R&D (let's be honest..):

• Leica "bought some time" for the M11 to be ready while still selling M10 bodies
• Leica got more than a few upgrades M10(10-P) to M10-R because of FOMO
• Leica sold more than a few M10-R to newcomers (me included.. thinking that it will have a better resell value down the line compared to the M10-P that costed almost the same)
• Leica tested the market of higher resolution sensor in the M system (some people love it, some people hate it.. I'm still not sure although I bought the R instead of the P)

IMHO, the fact that the camera is in stock almost everywhere shows that it is not selling that well (for a Leica that should almost by definition have limited availability..), but Leica sold these bodies to their resellers..

[setuporg]

3 hours ago, crf59 said:

Nobody is criticizing the R, but your approach seems to be to call everyone who bought a P an idiot

At the time of the P appearance, I couldn't understand why would folks upgrade to it from the original M10.  This is very different from "anyone who bough a P".  The upgrade was quite expensive if you wanted to do it at the factory.  I still don't understand the need for an upgrade from M10 to P unless quiet shutter is absolutely essential to you as an e.g. concert photographer.  If we are talking about the success of the R, my point is it has much more to differentiate it from the preceding M10s than any other, especially the P.  Thus R is poised for success more than any other M10, in my opinion.  The R upgrade was almost automatic for me, I put myself on a waiting list for it well in advance, while with the P I never even bothered to ponder it over the original M10.  As anyone else here I'm reporting my own take, so YMMV.

[Steven]

3 minutes ago, junix said:

My personal view on OP question (just to get slightly back on topic..)..

I think the M10-R was a success because with minimal R&D (let's be honest..):

• Leica "bought some time" for the M11 to be ready while still selling M10 bodies
• Leica got more than a few upgrades M10(10-P) to M10-R because of FOMO
• Leica sold more than a few M10-R to newcomers (me included.. thinking that it will have a better resell value down the line compared to the M10-P that costed almost the same)
• Leica tested the market of higher resolution sensor in the M system (some people love it, some people hate it.. I'm still not sure although I bought the R instead of the P)

IMHO, the fact that the camera is in stock almost everywhere shows that it is not selling that well (for a Leica that should almost by definition have limited availability..), but Leica sold these bodies to their resellers..

Good post 👌🏼

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Hallo,

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[setuporg]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

While the looks of the M10P is much nicer, I referred indeed to the quiet shutter

Jono makes an interesting point that in model photography the audible click is a confirmation of the shot, and that he in fact misses it.  So even that is not a given for different use cases.  I enjoy a solid click as much as I enjoy a quiet one.  The Edition 60 click is amazing, coming from a steel body.  The weirdest click of all is the original central shutter of the XCD 45mm lens for the X1D, which scared so many people about that system they had to redo it with the 45P.  Someone on the SL forum referred to the SL2 shutter sound as orgasmic.:). Hence it's clearly an important consideration, and the R has everything the P has including the quiet shutter, which seems to be a standard now.  Referring to Jono's point, someone said that would be great to have that configurable, which is clearly not a mechanical option, while a fake shutter sound is something that a smartphone makes but conceivably could be added to Leica, if only to cause a shock and awe on this forum.:)