Review: Leica Noctilux 50mm f1.2

[pedaes]

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18 hours ago, Jeff S said:

So, what’s the current value of the original Noctilux f1.2?

Jeff

One sold at Flints Auction in April for £38,440 including Buyers Premium.

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[ELAN]

1 hour ago, pedaes said:

Which is of course silver anodised aluminium. Sorry to have to tell you if you thought it was brass.

I have a silver chrome 50 APO LHSA 11187. It’s brass, not anodized aluminum. Check it out. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by ELAN

[ELAN]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

Is that the LHSA version ? I'm currently buying that lens. I hear so many great things about it. 

Yes it is. It is wonderful in every way. 

[pedaes]

26 minutes ago, ELAN said:

50 APO LHSA

You didn't say.😀

[mdg1371]

22 minutes ago, Steven said:

May I ask what other 50s you have ? or is that the only one you need ? I'm on the fence about buying it because I am into more vintage renderings, such as the Noctilux 1.2, and I did end up returning my 35APO after all. But it looks sooo good ! 

I got an early 50mm Noct f1.2 reissue and sold it almost immediately. In terms of 50’s, I have a Noct f.95, Noct f1, 50mm Lux asph, 50mm summicron APO, and Summarit f1.5– the new Noct was breathtakingly disappointing, not because I expected it to keep up with modern designs, but rather because I found it’s “vintage” rendering mediocre. For me, and I stress for me, it doesn’t do “vintage” as well as true vintage lenses, and it isn’t unique enough to make it worth the cost. 

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Edited July 18, 2021 by mdg1371

[ELAN]

Just now, Steven said:

May I ask what other 50s you have ? or is that the only one you need ? I'm on the fence about buying it because I am into more vintage renderings, such as the Noctilux 1.2, and I did end up returning my 35APO after all. But it looks sooo good ! 

Besides the 50 APO I have the 50 Summilux BC and the f/1 Noctilux.  All three are my favorite   Sadly I hardly use them because 35 has been my preferred focal length for a while now. The f/1 gets the least usage because of size and weight.  Maybe I’ll trade it for the f/1.2

[ELAN]

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4 minutes ago, pedaes said:

You didn't say.😀

I said silver chrome…

[pedaes]

11 minutes ago, ELAN said:

I said silver chrome…

Exactly! You didn't say 'LHSA edition'. Many describe their silver anodised lenses as silver chrome. The LHSA lenses are a tiny percentage of the total and most are in cabinets (and I say that as a LHSA sustaining member) so I won't beat myself up about my error. You are lucky to have it and enjoy.

[Capuccino-Muffin]

5 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

My chrome 35 ASPH Summilux is considerably heavier than the black version by a bit under 200g (250g v 425g). OTOH it would appear that there is a higher proportion of 35 ASPH Summiluxes without horrendous aperture shift, amongst the chrome population than amongst the black. One possible reason for this is that brass is far easier to machine to the required exact measurements than aluminium because of a) heat generation on aluminium machining, so that the brass machined part stays cooler and b) the tendency for Aluminium to "spall" or tear rather than cutting cleanly. When the required tolerances for an ideal 35 ASPH Summilux proved to be unachievable in manufacturing, Leica in recognition of the unacceptable sample variation on this lens, redesigned the lens as a floating lens element lens, with more achievable manufacturing tolerances. 

Wilson

But how did Leica manufacture the 35 summilux pre-asph to acceptable tolerances, years and years before? 

[roelandinho]

vor 2 Minuten schrieb Capuccino-Muffin:

But how did Leica manufacture the 35 summilux pre-asph to acceptable tolerances, years and years before? 

The bar for “acceptable” went a lot higher with the transition to digital. The pre-asph Summilux lenses also show sample variation, and they all suffer from focus shift caused by lots of spherical aberration at the large aperture settings. On film (which both the pre-asph and pre-FLE Summiluxes were designed for) this was less of an issue. 

As we move to higher resolution digital sensors the bar for “acceptable” keeps rising. Maybe the FLE Summilux will be known for unacceptable focus shift by 2034 when we’re focusing our 200 megapixel M14 rangefinder with our superduper robot-eye implants. 

[giannis]

1 hour ago, roelandinho said:

[...] show sample variation, and they all suffer from focus shift caused [...]

While those statements are true, they're not related. Focus shift is an independent issue from sample variation/tolerances, and a product of the optical formula of the lens.

1 hour ago, roelandinho said:

On film (which both the pre-asph and pre-FLE Summiluxes were designed for) this was less of an issue. 

Well, I have to disagree a bit. It wasn't that focus shift was less of an issue, it was simply that with film (and especially pre-80's), lens calculation was a very laborious and time intensive operation. Lens designers didn't have the means to calculate multiple formulas for 10+ element lenses to eliminate focus shift in fast lenses. They did their best, with the means available to them and everybody else at the time, and that was it. 

 

Nowadays the bar has risen, because optical CAD software has been a great equaliser in the area of lens design. Even a moderate-sized firm can produce very good performing lenses, with a combination of some basic good design principles (that are common knowledge now) and lots of trial and error with software, most of which even happens in an automated way with simulations. This fact, that newcomers (i.e. other than Zeiss/Leica/Nikon/Canon) can produce very good designs, has pushed the aforementioned top dogs into very high-end designs, so they can stand out - and charge the prices they do. Very high res digital sensors also contributed to that a lot, as you correctly mention.

Edited July 18, 2021 by giannis
content

[wlaidlaw]

1 hour ago, Capuccino-Muffin said:

But how did Leica manufacture the 35 summilux pre-asph to acceptable tolerances, years and years before? 

The pre-ASPH did not demand the same minuscule tolerances of the ASPH. When I made a visit to Solms in 2007, where I left my 35 ASPH Summilux for 6 bit coding, I emphasised not to change anything else because I did not want its excellent performance altered. I had another Leica user near where I live in the UK, who had 3 different black alloy 35 ASPH Summiluxes and all were unusable due to aperture shifting right out of the DOF. Leica wrote an article in LFI explaining why aperture shift was inevitable with the ASPH Summilux. I asked therefore why mine only had minimal shift. The technician explained that the ideal tolerances for element spacing were just over a micron, which was just not achievable in practice. Thus the sample variation on those lenses. I suspect that Leica may have later learnt a lesson from Zeiss' design for their ZM series lenses, where sample variation was minimal. They were designed to have tolerances within the manufacturing abilities of Cosina. Hence the FLE where sample variation was minimal. 

Wilson

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by wlaidlaw

[farnz]

3 hours ago, wlaidlaw said:

I had another Leica user near where I live in the UK, who had 3 different black alloy 35 ASPH Summiluxes and all were unusable due to aperture shifting right out of the DOF.

Was that Tim Ashley by any chance, Wilson?

Pete.

[wlaidlaw]

10 hours ago, farnz said:

Was that Tim Ashley by any chance, Wilson?

Pete.

Hi Pete,

Yes Tim. I have not heard from him for years. We used occasionally to meet for a drink when he came over to Bakers of Lewes, when they were still Leica dealers. I don't know if he still lives in Amberley. We are quite often there in normal times as our oldest friends live just above the Chalk Pits Industrial Museum. 

Wilson

[Gobert]

On 7/18/2021 at 5:02 PM, mdg1371 said:

I got an early 50mm Noct f1.2 reissue and sold it almost immediately. In terms of 50’s, I have a Noct f.95, Noct f1, 50mm Lux asph, 50mm summicron APO, and Summarit f1.5– the new Noct was breathtakingly disappointing, not because I expected it to keep up with modern designs, but rather because I found it’s “vintage” rendering mediocre. For me, and I stress for me, it doesn’t do “vintage” as well as true vintage lenses, and it isn’t unique enough to make it worth the cost. 

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Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Appearantly you are a fifty lover like me. But I cannot sell lenses, emotionally I mean.

[Guest]

The problem with the reissue of old lenses is that it exposes the basic fact that the modern lenses are only slightly better,more contrasty and less prone to flair than lenses from 60 years ago.

Its mostly all hype and marketing trash making people buy the latest and greatest.

Better performance at  full aperture,massive contrast and effective coatings give modern lenses the edge  but for many people only the coating really improves matters for picture taking.

I have a 1982 90mm  tele-elmarit thin and there is no way i would ever need anything sharper than that lens for example,what is that? a fifty year old design?

 

 

 

[farnz]

12 hours ago, Steven said:

Seems like he changed the price to 10% of that at 88k. 

I would have loved to have a kept a screenshot of his page selling it a 888,888 € to keep a track of this in case I ever want to sell mine 🤪

You should be able to use The Way Back Machine to bring up the page, Steven.  It's an archive of all webpages that have been uploaded and as long as you have the URL you should be able to find it.

Pete.

[farnz]

Hi Steven,

For some reason the Way Back Machine has only saved snapshots on some days and there's not much depth, ie you can't drill down very deep.  The closest I got was this page that shows the 50/1.2 Chrome Noctilux MkII but not the €888,888,00 price it was 'advertised' at.  Sorry about that it normally archives everything.  The Schouten website is a secure site (https://) so that might be why.   Someone else might know of an alternative web archive site.

Pete.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[rtai]

On 7/21/2021 at 3:14 AM, steve 1959 said:

The problem with the reissue of old lenses is that it exposes the basic fact that the modern lenses are only slightly better,more contrasty and less prone to flair than lenses from 60 years ago.

Its mostly all hype and marketing trash making people buy the latest and greatest.

Better performance at  full aperture,massive contrast and effective coatings give modern lenses the edge  but for many people only the coating really improves matters for picture taking.

I have a 1982 90mm  tele-elmarit thin and there is no way i would ever need anything sharper than that lens for example,what is that? a fifty year old design?

 

 

 

Exactly. Late 90’s German 35mm Summilux Pre-A vs the same Canadian lens from the 70’s. I don’t think Leica did anything to the lens except updated the multi coating.

[ianman]

On 7/23/2021 at 12:02 PM, Steven said:

Edit: although I didn’t succeed to use this site. 

Here ya go...

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