GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Succisa75]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

1 minute ago, jaapv said:

And the CL is the best of all Leica worlds for me. Leica does not compete, they offer cameras for connoisseurs. It is impossible to compete in a David-Goliath situation, it is a matter of finding niches. Leica's product palette reflects that.

Fantastic camera and highly underrated I feel. Thing is Leica does need to compete now. Not with the M and the Q, but when you get into the full frame professional arena, and the APS-C they are looking to build their customer base. There are only so many buyers that will use and SL2 for their M lenses.  The market outside of that is what Leica wants to capture more of. 
 

Its a goal of many to own a Leica, but if you want to use it for work, you also need to think about ROI. That’s the market hopefully Leica looks to work with going forward. 
 

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[jaapv]

Yes, but I fear Leica's customer target is not the working professional but the advanced amateur. They like having professionals on board, but more for marketing reasons and love of photography.

[Succisa75]

2 minutes ago, jaapv said:

Yes, but I fear Leica's customer target is not the working professional but the advanced amateur. They like having professionals on board, but more for marketing reasons and love of photography.

Agree,  and in economical trying times like this, that market is much more conservative than before 

[LocalHero1953]

16 minutes ago, Succisa75 said:

Owning a Leica is an investment, but at the same time you want to maximise that investment. 

I guess you're a professional.

For me, as an amateur, buying Leicas (any camera for that matter) is a sure fire way to lose money.

Edited January 31, 2021 by LocalHero1953

[Stuart Richardson]

Times are tough for the camera industry, and companies that might otherwise slowly dole out features on an optimal schedule for their return on investment are now throwing everything they can possibly think of at camera buyers to try to get them to buy. Sony and Fuji happen to be enormous imaging and technology companies, so when they pull out the stops, some very impressive things come out. Leica has a slightly different position in the market as the "premium" seller, but like all premium sellers, they have to give users a premium experience while also maintaining enough credibility that their product justifies the price tag. So the pressure is on Leica as well...hopefully over the coming years they will rise to the challenge. I will say, however, that the SL2 is one of the nicest cameras I have ever used.

I see the X100S as more threatening to the S system than the SL. The SL is more a 35mm do it all camera. The S for some people is about the OVF and lenses, but back when it came out, it was also about the maximum image quality with the most flexibility in handling (remember, the only comparison was Phase or Hasselblad H series, which cost double and were heavier, slower and not weather sealed). There was not even a D800 at the time. Now, you can get a sealed MF camera with stabilization, great lenses and 40-60 more megapixels for 1/3rd the price. The market has shifted, and every new iteration like this means that Leica needs to adjust to provide new credible reasons for its "premiumness" in the MF sector.

[jaapv]

I think you are right, Stuart. The  Alpha 1 is more of a threat to the SL2.

[Succisa75]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

9 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Times are tough for the camera industry, and companies that might otherwise slowly dole out features on an optimal schedule for their return on investment are now throwing everything they can possibly think of at camera buyers to try to get them to buy. Sony and Fuji happen to be enormous imaging and technology companies, so when they pull out the stops, some very impressive things come out. Leica has a slightly different position in the market as the "premium" seller, but like all premium sellers, they have to give users a premium experience while also maintaining enough credibility that their product justifies the price tag. So the pressure is on Leica as well...hopefully over the coming years they will rise to the challenge. I will say, however, that the SL2 is one of the nicest cameras I have ever used.

I see the X100S as more threatening to the S system than the SL. The SL is more a 35mm do it all camera. The S for some people is about the OVF and lenses, but back when it came out, it was also about the maximum image quality with the most flexibility in handling (remember, the only comparison was Phase or Hasselblad H series, which cost double and were heavier, slower and not weather sealed). There was not even a D800 at the time. Now, you can get a sealed MF camera with stabilization, great lenses and 40-60 more megapixels for 1/3rd the price. The market has shifted, and every new iteration like this means that Leica needs to adjust to provide new credible reasons for its "premiumness" in the MF sector.

Well said. I think why the X100S is brought up here is size, performance and price is equal to and better than the SL2 in many ways thus why many are considering it over full frame. 
but agree the biggest challenge will be to the S series. 
 

[Sjz]

20 minutes ago, LocalHero1953 said:

This thread seems to have become an outlet for all those suffering with buyers' remorse.
Just to reset the balance a bit: the SL2-S does exactly what I wanted it to do. Ditto the lenses.
Hey ho, that's life in all it's rich variety, I suppose.

Sometimes on this forum I feel unique as I really enjoy my SL2.  Over a year in, and I am still learning (and hopefully improving).  That is not to belittle the people who are frustrated with it (and not an invitation to reiterate complaints which have oft been reiterated before), but just to say for some of us, it is a fantastic enjoyable experience to use.

That Fuji specification and form factor looks interesting, the X1D is undoubtably interesting, however I am very happy with where I am at the moment (having said that I am fighting a losing battle to resist buying a 75 APO M.  Ffordes and Red Dot annoyingly have some nice looking examples).

 

[Succisa75]

A friend sent these to me. Yes their is vignetting on the images taken with the lens, but to show the size of the camera compared to the APO. 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited January 31, 2021 by Succisa75

[Succisa75]

1 hour ago, LocalHero1953 said:

I guess you're a professional.

For me, as an amateur, buying Leicas (any camera for that matter) is a sure fire way to lose money.

I do a bit. I’ve used the SL for work and tested the SL2 for a few weeks. For still work the SL2 is fantastic with optimal light. For fast moving and lower light situations it struggled. Buffering is very bad, continuous AF isn’t reliable. Video it hunts a bit but this is depending on the situation and subject. The SL2-S has improved over the SL2 in some ways but waiting to see if the update really does bring a big improvement  

For sure when you pull out a Leica clients and people get excited, and it’s one of the best looking and feeling cameras I’ve ever used, but if you need a tool that can handle various scenarios and lighting conditions there other options better suited.  In fact I found more confidence and in focus shots with the SL at times vs the SL2. 
 

but yes most cameras you loose money on except black paint M3 😂 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Succisa75

[frame-it]

35 minutes ago, jaapv said:

The  Alpha 1 is more of a threat to the SL2.

Finally, someone compared FF to FF instead of MF 😇

 

so many people keep comparing prices/megapixels, and seem to forget or ignore the actual sensor size.

Edited January 31, 2021 by frame-it

[jrp]

1 hour ago, jaapv said:

I think you are right, Stuart. The  Alpha 1 is more of a threat to the SL2.

The cycles of the different manufacturers are not in sync.  At the moment, The A1 leads.  Last week it was the Canon R5.  Next it will be the Nikon Z1, whenever that arrives.

The A1's technological advantage comes from its fast readout sensor, high quality, sensor and faster processors (which given better focusing performance, higher flash sync speeds and low/no blackout).  They have also managed to include some class-leading connectivity options and EVF.  It's not clear how much of such technology will find its way into the SL3.

The SL2's advantages come from the handling of the camera, which matters more to some, than to others, and its high quality lenses, which it seem slow in coming.  The Panasonic and Sigma L lenses are, however, pretty good, but it's fair to say that the Sony E mount has some great lenses, not least from Sony and Sigma themselves.  The SL2 has a sensor that is a generation or two behind Sony, but the cover gives good colour and produces better edge performance even with non-M lenses.  The Sony's PDAF is superior to the SL2 focusing system for moving subjects, at the risk of banding when pushed, but the SL2 doesn't push as well in the first place. 

Leica's priority should be to get more lenses out, get a faster processor lined up, or include 2, and get a superior sensor: the SL2-S sensor is better than the SL2's but the lower resolution produces more moire / false colour because of its lower resolution.

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Prob is the two sensors are different architecture. The SL2-S is a BSI sensor where the SL2 isn’t. So the firmware update coming for the S might be unique to it. 
From what I understand there was no mention of an SL2 update thus far. 

That doesn't really matter. The Panasonic S5 has a BSI sensor, but the update was released for non-BSI cameras like the S1R too.

[Succisa75]

7 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

That doesn't really matter. The Panasonic S5 has a BSI sensor, but the update was released for non-BSI cameras like the S1R too.

Actually the S5 doesn’t have a BSI sensor but does have dual native ISO tech. The BSI is unique to Leica comparing the Lumix to the SL2-S 

Edited January 31, 2021 by Succisa75

[Simone_DF]

2 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Sony and Fuji happen to be enormous imaging and technology companies, so when they pull out the stops, some very impressive things come out.

But same can be said of Panasonic. And actually Panasonic is way bigger than Fujifilm. 

[jaapv]

May I remind members that whilst (strong) criticism is welcome on this forum, Leica-bashing is definitely not. Words like "crap" and "stupid" are explicitly forbidden by the forum rules and will be dealt with by the moderators.

[caissa]

The SL2 is still top for me. Also because of IBIS and multishot. But mainly because of all the Leica lenses.

The A1 will come in a month or two, only then testing is possible. AF is probably better, but I rarely need it. (AFc is weaker, but AFs is more than good enough for all I need).

Chasing always the latest technology means spending a lot of money. And also losing a lot of time to get accustomed to the new equipment. So in my eyes this is not professional.

The weakness of the SL system was always that Leica produces so few lenses, with very long waits between them.  The partners in Lmount helped a bit, but in the end I still prefer the Leica lenses.

Edited January 31, 2021 by caissa

[Succisa75]

1 minute ago, caissa said:

The SL2 is still top for me. Also because of IBIS and multishot. But mainly because of all the Leica lenses.

The A1 will come in a month or two, only then testing is possible. AF is probably better, but I rarely need it. (AFc is weaker, but AFs is more than good enough for all I need).

Chasing always the latest technology means spending a lot of money. And also loosing a lot of time to get accustomed to the new equipment. So in my eyes this is not professional.

The weakness of the SL system was always that Leica produces so few lenses, with very long waits between them.

I would recommend the Sigma and Panasonic lenses. They are very high quality and some equal and even at times outperform some of the Leica counterparts. The L Mount Alliance has made some headway that’s for sure. 
 

The AFc needs help. Maybe with the SL3 or whatever it will be called. 

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[caissa]

You were too quick, you answered before my text was finished. So I will not answer again. 

[aksclix]

5 hours ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Times are tough for the camera industry, and companies that might otherwise slowly dole out features on an optimal schedule for their return on investment are now throwing everything they can possibly think of at camera buyers to try to get them to buy. Sony and Fuji happen to be enormous imaging and technology companies, so when they pull out the stops, some very impressive things come out. Leica has a slightly different position in the market as the "premium" seller, but like all premium sellers, they have to give users a premium experience while also maintaining enough credibility that their product justifies the price tag. So the pressure is on Leica as well...hopefully over the coming years they will rise to the challenge. I will say, however, that the SL2 is one of the nicest cameras I have ever used.

I see the X100S as more threatening to the S system than the SL. The SL is more a 35mm do it all camera. The S for some people is about the OVF and lenses, but back when it came out, it was also about the maximum image quality with the most flexibility in handling (remember, the only comparison was Phase or Hasselblad H series, which cost double and were heavier, slower and not weather sealed). There was not even a D800 at the time. Now, you can get a sealed MF camera with stabilization, great lenses and 40-60 more megapixels for 1/3rd the price. The market has shifted, and every new iteration like this means that Leica needs to adjust to provide new credible reasons for its "premiumness" in the MF sector.

Precisely the reasons why I was even pondering about “what next for The S?”