GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Succisa75]

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42 minutes ago, beewee said:

Chances are good that the film you load inside will be made in Japan. 🙃

Lol and UK 😂

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[LocalHero1953]

8 hours ago, Succisa75 said:

Most digital cameras coming from Leica have Panasonic tech in them. Even parts of the M assume.  
In addition if you purchase a leica certified S Pro Lens from Panasonic you are getting a Leica lens essentially at a fraction of the cost. You miss out on the German build quality and maybe a few special elements but the optical performance is about equal. 
 

the S Pro 50 vs SL 50 Summilux is a great example of this. 
 

if you want a current Leica camera that is all German from top to bottom go for the MP film camera. 

Which digital cameras do not have someone else's tech in them? Leica doesn't make its own glass either. You're tilting at windmills here. 

[Stuart Richardson]

As someone with both the S1 and SL2, I can say that sharing technology does not mean the results are the same. For example, the S1 has better video performance. The SL2, however, has more seamless and better quality pixel shifts in high resolution mode. I think there is a tendency to underestimate things like Leica's software engineering, and a company like Panasonic's optical engineering. Technology is shared, it is not completely done for the other party.

[Succisa75]

28 minutes ago, Stuart Richardson said:

As someone with both the S1 and SL2, I can say that sharing technology does not mean the results are the same. For example, the S1 has better video performance. The SL2, however, has more seamless and better quality pixel shifts in high resolution mode. I think there is a tendency to underestimate things like Leica's software engineering, and a company like Panasonic's optical engineering. Technology is shared, it is not completely done for the other party.

Yes agree. I’ve used both the S1R and SL2 results are different. For me I found the high resolution mode on the S1R vs SL2 to be roughly the same.  
 

I think the underestimating of the engineering is due to lack of updates compared to the Lumix line that has many of the same components and technology. 
It would have been ideal if Leica was also as aggressive on the updates as Panasonic. I think it would breath new life into the system. 

[Stuart Richardson]

Leica is a small company that is also very conservative about updates. But they are also diligent. As an example, when I got the S006, I had a unusual issue where the camera would occasionally take quite a bit of time to photograph after turning on the camera. It did not always happen, but often did, especially outside. After reporting it and going through it with CS, I did not hear from them for several months. Out of the blue, I received a phone call. Eventually they figured out that it was caused by the GPS and the satellite acquisition. It was only a problem in the near Arctic, where it took longer to find the satellites, but the program had a coding error where it prioritized GPS acquisition over shutter release. So for me in the sub arctic, the camera would take too long to release after being turned on, or after sleep. They wrote me a custom firmware to test while and incorporated the update into the next firmware. This was an issue that affected very few people probably only people about 62 or 63 degrees North, but they still tracked it down. I am sure that they are doing their best, but they probably have to make choices. I have also been in the position where I felt like something was not good enough or not working, and Leica decided it was good enough for them. My guess is that if they have an ability to update the AF in the next six months, they will do it, otherwise they will just focus their resources on making it as good as possible in the next generation camera.

[Succisa75]

1 hour ago, Stuart Richardson said:

Leica is a small company that is also very conservative about updates. But they are also diligent. As an example, when I got the S006, I had a unusual issue where the camera would occasionally take quite a bit of time to photograph after turning on the camera. It did not always happen, but often did, especially outside. After reporting it and going through it with CS, I did not hear from them for several months. Out of the blue, I received a phone call. Eventually they figured out that it was caused by the GPS and the satellite acquisition. It was only a problem in the near Arctic, where it took longer to find the satellites, but the program had a coding error where it prioritized GPS acquisition over shutter release. So for me in the sub arctic, the camera would take too long to release after being turned on, or after sleep. They wrote me a custom firmware to test while and incorporated the update into the next firmware. This was an issue that affected very few people probably only people about 62 or 63 degrees North, but they still tracked it down. I am sure that they are doing their best, but they probably have to make choices. I have also been in the position where I felt like something was not good enough or not working, and Leica decided it was good enough for them. My guess is that if they have an ability to update the AF in the next six months, they will do it, otherwise they will just focus their resources on making it as good as possible in the next generation camera.

I hope your right. Problem is the longer they wait to address these issues the less cameras that sell. Those days of being able to be conservative with updates are no longer valid in today’s cut throat camera market, especially the full frame mirrorless market. The M cameras are unique, but the SL lineup is much more competitive and fast paced. 

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Succisa75 said:

I hope your right. Problem is the longer they wait to address these issues the less cameras that sell. Those days of being able to be conservative with updates are no longer valid in today’s cut throat camera market, especially the full frame mirrorless market. The M cameras are unique, but the SL lineup is much more competitive and fast paced. 

I am all for few updates. When I buy a camera, I buy it for what it is, not for what it will be.

[beewee]

I empathize with those who want more frequent/timely updates to the SL system cameras but I feel that the reason why we don’t get as many updates is because they’re just not a big seller. It really wouldn’t surprise me if Leica sells more Q2s then the SL2 and SL2-S combined. On the one hand, you can view Leica’s SL/SL2/SL2-S updates as an investment into the ecosystem and potentially selling more bodies but on the other hand the volumes will still pale in comparison to their M lineup. At the end of the day, the M line is what pays the bills so Leica will naturally dedicate more resources to the M line than the SL line. The S line is just a footnote.

Edited February 11, 2021 by beewee

[analog-digital]

Am 28.1.2021 um 07:41 schrieb P1505:

It’s just a camera with more pixels.

No

 

It has the build in stabilisation.....

[aksclix]

Well, it would be a bad idea to have a product that is not well thought out and that which doesn't have a reasonable roadmap which in the end results in a good ROI! It's what all businesses are about.. so, I don't think they will have an SL line set up for failure.. they will progress in their own timeline and I certainly don't think they will stop investing on this line.. it IS the future! TECH is the future.. Even the S line should eventually see an upgrade.. "IMO" 

those who win are not in a short term competition but in that race and still surviving which has no end! 

[Succisa75]

3 hours ago, aksclix said:

Well, it would be a bad idea to have a product that is not well thought out and that which doesn't have a reasonable roadmap which in the end results in a good ROI! It's what all businesses are about.. so, I don't think they will have an SL line set up for failure.. they will progress in their own timeline and I certainly don't think they will stop investing on this line.. it IS the future! TECH is the future.. Even the S line should eventually see an upgrade.. "IMO" 

those who win are not in a short term competition but in that race and still surviving which has no end! 

Agree, the SL line is the future. They were ahead of the curve with the original SL, and I give them credit for taking that leap, but they also had to change pricing and create smaller lenses to attract new customers. 
The four year plan they had with the SL probably wont work this time. I suspect life cycles will be shorter in this market segment. 

Leica doesn’t need to do much for many existing Leica users, as some only use the camera for their M lenses because it’s easier to Focus and ergonomics,  but for those that want the most out of their camera system who might be using other gear that’s the market I feel they will have to work harder to target. 
 

Additionally I found from my conversations with interns and students, that a number of young photographers early 20’s and late teens aren’t familiar with Leica.  They know the big three but Leica is foreign to them. 
 

Perhaps planting the Leica seed earlier will also help  

[Jeff S]

3 hours ago, analog-digital said:

No

It has the build in stabilisation.....

So does the SL2, which is the Leica being compared here.

Jeff

[aksclix]

21 minutes ago, Succisa75 said:

Agree, the SL line is the future. They were ahead of the curve with the original SL, and I give them credit for taking that leap, but they also had to change pricing and create smaller lenses to attract new customers. 
The four year plan they had with the SL probably wont work this time. I suspect life cycles will be shorter in this market segment. 

Leica doesn’t need to do much for many existing Leica users, as some only use the camera for their M lenses because it’s easier to Focus and ergonomics,  but for those that want the most out of their camera system who might be using other gear that’s the market I feel they will have to work harder to target. 
 

Additionally I found from my conversations with interns and students, that a number of young photographers early 20’s and late teens aren’t familiar with Leica.  They know the big three but Leica is foreign to them. 
 

Perhaps planting the Leica seed earlier will also help  

Leica is never going to be for "everyone".. I think they will preserve their niche market for whatever is coming next in the S line and the SL also to a great extent.. because they'll never be cheap! Quality stuff offered by competition is very high.. so, I think Leica will never try to be (and should never try to be) one among them. IMO, they will always stand out with their products. I am sure the PMs behind the scenes are working on something phenomenal! Making quality stuff without compromises, with precision, with passion while keeping their legacy alive is bound to take time. So, I don't foresee an update (not firmware) coming for another 2-3 years! Sony has had it's journey and maybe is at its peak.. I just don't know what else they could do  Also, there needs to be some sorta class distinction between the other brands and brands like Leica, Hasselblad.. they're too prestigious brands with the highest quality to be flustered by competition or follow suit. They've seen it and they're working on something big is all I could assume and expect! When? I am sure they have their strategists taking care of that... 
I am just glad I am now a proud owner of Leica and Hasselblad brands..

[aksclix]

4 minutes ago, aksclix said:

Leica is never going to be for "everyone".. I think they will preserve their niche market for whatever is coming next in the S line and the SL also to a great extent.. because they'll never be cheap! Quality stuff offered by competition is very high.. so, I think Leica will never try to be (and should never try to be) one among them. IMO, they will always stand out with their products. I am sure the PMs behind the scenes are working on something phenomenal! Making quality stuff without compromises, with precision, with passion while keeping their legacy alive is bound to take time. So, I don't foresee an update (not firmware) coming for another 2-3 years! Sony has had it's journey and maybe is at its peak.. I just don't know what else they could do  Also, there needs to be some sorta class distinction between the other brands and brands like Leica, Hasselblad.. they're too prestigious brands with the highest quality to be flustered by competition or follow suit. They've seen it and they're working on something big is all I could assume and expect! When? I am sure they have their strategists taking care of that... 
I am just glad I am now a proud owner of Leica and Hasselblad brands..

I retract a little bit.. there are some Leicas for everyone too.. like the CL and TL systems I jumped at an opportunity to get a CL Paul Smith and got it..

[Succisa75]

8 minutes ago, aksclix said:

Leica is never going to be for "everyone".. I think they will preserve their niche market for whatever is coming next in the S line and the SL also to a great extent.. because they'll never be cheap! Quality stuff offered by competition is very high.. so, I think Leica will never try to be (and should never try to be) one among them. IMO, they will always stand out with their products. I am sure the PMs behind the scenes are working on something phenomenal! Making quality stuff without compromises, with precision, with passion while keeping their legacy alive is bound to take time. So, I don't foresee an update (not firmware) coming for another 2-3 years! Sony has had it's journey and maybe is at its peak.. I just don't know what else they could do  Also, there needs to be some sorta class distinction between the other brands and brands like Leica, Hasselblad.. they're too prestigious brands with the highest quality to be flustered by competition or follow suit. They've seen it and they're working on something big is all I could assume and expect! When? I am sure they have their strategists taking care of that... 
I am just glad I am now a proud owner of Leica and Hasselblad brands..

I love that all that you said about Leica, and hope they are coming out with something phenomenal. 
I do think we will see a shorter life cycle on the SL2 though. I think by 2022 we will have a new model come out or a variation of it that has improvements to it. 

I thought the same thing about Sony and now I’m trying the A1 and what they put into this camera tech wise is pretty amazing. Body badly needs and update and even the EVF as high resolution as it is doesn’t seem to be better than those offered by Leica, or at least to my eyes, but the speed and AF and video functionality is extremely impressive. 

[Succisa75]

3 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I retract a little bit.. there are some Leicas for everyone too.. like the CL and TL systems I jumped at an opportunity to get a CL Paul Smith and got it..

Beautiful camera and I found it looks even better in person than in photos! 

[aksclix]

3 minutes ago, Succisa75 said:

I love that all that you said about Leica, and hope they are coming out with something phenomenal. 
I do think we will see a shorter life cycle on the SL2 though. I think by 2022 we will have a new model come out or a variation of it that has improvements to it. 

I thought the same thing about Sony and now I’m trying the A1 and what they put into this camera tech wise is pretty amazing. Body badly needs and update and even the EVF as high resolution as it is doesn’t seem to be better than those offered by Leica, or at least to my eyes, but the speed and AF and video functionality is extremely impressive. 

If they come up with an SL3 so soon, I would be slightly disappointed because I don't want my SL2 to be outdated and selling below 3K  resale value for SL2 is already pretty bad hovering around 4k - 4.3k.. I'll be devastated to know my 6.5K investment is worth below 3K in 1.5 years  

 

8 minutes ago, Succisa75 said:

Beautiful camera and I found it looks even better in person than in photos! 

the CL is a delight to hold.. it is SOOOO compact and with the grip it feels even better.. so far I am not quite satisfied with its ISO performance at 3200 though.. it's going to be my day camera for walkabouts.. along with the Hassy x1d

[LD_50]

2 hours ago, aksclix said:

If they come up with an SL3 so soon, I would be slightly disappointed because I don't want my SL2 to be outdated and selling below 3K  resale value for SL2 is already pretty bad hovering around 4k - 4.3k.. I'll be devastated to know my 6.5K investment is worth below 3K in 1.5 years  

 

the CL is a delight to hold.. it is SOOOO compact and with the grip it feels even better.. so far I am not quite satisfied with its ISO performance at 3200 though.. it's going to be my day camera for walkabouts.. along with the Hassy x1d

A camera is almost never going to be a good investment unless you’re using it to make money by selling photos or videos. 

If Leica does not release an SL3 soon, you keep shooting what you have and don’t sell it so the current sale value is irrelevant. 
 

If Leica does release an SL3 soon, you can still keep shooting what you have and the sale value is still irrelevant. 
 

The camera you already have is the same either way so why worry about what they release next? If you need your camera to make money and whatever features offered on the SL3 bring in more revenue and are therefore necessary, the sale price of your existing camera shouldn’t matter. 

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[aksclix]

57 minutes ago, LD_50 said:

A camera is almost never going to be a good investment unless you’re using it to make money by selling photos or videos. 

If Leica does not release an SL3 soon, you keep shooting what you have and don’t sell it so the current sale value is irrelevant. 
 

If Leica does release an SL3 soon, you can still keep shooting what you have and the sale value is still irrelevant. 
 

The camera you already have is the same either way so why worry about what they release next? If you need your camera to make money and whatever features offered on the SL3 bring in more revenue and are therefore necessary, the sale price of your existing camera shouldn’t matter. 

I prefer keeping up to date with tech.. unless new tech offered isn’t worthwhile and I make that decision on a case by case basis.. most of my work is for charitable causes, so making money is not my goal. Shooting with satisfaction is... and that comes with satisfying what my heart wants 😌 I seldom listen to what my head says 

[LD_50]

54 minutes ago, aksclix said:

I prefer keeping up to date with tech.. unless new tech offered isn’t worthwhile and I make that decision on a case by case basis.. most of my work is for charitable causes, so making money is not my goal. Shooting with satisfaction is... and that comes with satisfying what my heart wants 😌 I seldom listen to what my head says 

I’m the same, making money isn’t something I shoot for. 
 

That said, keeping up with tech isn’t the Leica way.

My point stands though. If you want to keep up to date with tech, the longer Leica takes to release an SL3, the farther behind you are. The sooner they release an SL3, the closer you can be to keeping up with it.