GFX100S vs SL2/X1D

[Tailwagger]

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20 minutes ago, FlashGordonPhotography said:

However..... A few things. First, it's very lens dependant. The 24-90 and 16-35 are lightning fast and it gets slower until the 50mm 1.4.

I'd add anecdotally that while I've never been consciously annoyed by the AF performance of the Pano 16-35, nor the Sigma 45mm, the 135 ART is another matter entirely.  It can be a true exercise in anger management at times.

My guess, purely a guess, is that the performance of the other Pano offerings mirror Leica's. I would have less faith in the Sigma ART range, but perhaps those who own other focal lengths might chime in one way or the other.  Were I planning a system that included some of their more exotic offerings, say the 35mm 1.2 or the 105mm 1.4, I'd suggest at least taking them for a test drive before deciding... assuming you can lift them.  They are shuffling some pretty heavy glass around.

[tom0511]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Flou:

My problem is: Leica M- and SL-cameras got that magical Leica-feel and Leica-look. If money would not be a factor, I would switch back to the M-System and get the new Apo Summicron 35mm and a 75mm for portraits. But that is not possible financially. 
 

The Leica SL-System doesn‘t have that special M-shootingexperience, which every M-User loves so much. But it still has a bit of that Leica-feeling...simplicity, quality build, the Amazing Leica-IQ...no other affordable camera can give me that. The only camera I could imagine to be happy using, could be the GFX100s in terms of IQ and tonality. But I could never be happy with a camera like a Canon or Sony...for me, they are like high tech Instruments without soul. I thank you very much for the recommendation  but for me, only a Leica is a possible purchase. And the GFX100s because of that Amazing IQ. 
 

In my dreams, I would switch back to the M-System. Focussing manually is totally fine with a rangefinder-System. It is the skill of the photographer, if Focus is spot on or not. But with the SL1, you have to rely on an totally outdated AF-system. Manual Focus on the SL is not much fun for me.

Perhaps I should switch back to the M-System in the next years...then I don‘t have to rely on an AF-System and get that magical M-shooting experience back. But the price tag...😰

Hi Flou,

I am a long long time M shooter, from M6 for Epson R1d, M8 all the way to M10r. It is the only system I have allways owned and used. Canons, Nikons , Fuji, M43, came and went. I love the simplicity and the solid feel and the lenses ....

However over the years I had many lenses which needed calibration, sometimes it helped, sometimes not, some lenses have focus shift by desgin, etc.

So very often I experienced slightly out of focus images. Therefore I also went from 50Lux to 50Cron, why I sold the Nocti 0,95 and so on.

I know how to focus a rangefinder, I know my 75/2.0 focuses 100% fine at short distance, but a little behind at medium distance etc. etc.

But for shallow DOF I find the SL2 (and I also found the SL) MUCH easier to nail focus. Specially nailing focus in the eye.

What I wonder (I really do) why experiences between some of us are so different.

Does it depend on the lenses used? Or on settings? Or on expectations? I am not sure, but for some reason I think to myself that it should be possible to get better AF results than what you experience (and which I do not doubt). I even believe if there is something wrong with your camera, or lens,...(and no, I am not saying SL performance to be top notch, I just say I believe it shoud fine for kids as long as there is not fast action involved.

[hillavoider]

Ok this is getting somewhere therapy wise 

however “technique” and “skill” have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with really bad auto focus can we just all get over that 

it’s a sensor and an algorithm you are fighting 

Edited March 5, 2021 by hillavoider

[frame-it]

8 minutes ago, hillavoider said:

Ok this is getting somewhere therapy wise 

however “technique” and “skill” have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with really bad auto focus can we just all get over that 

it’s a sensor and an algorithm you are fighting 

this whole thread is a therapy session..with the OP nowhere to be seen 😀

[hillavoider]

1 minute ago, frame-it said:

this whole thread is a therapy session..with the OP nowhere to be seen 😀

😁👍

[SJH]

On 3/4/2021 at 7:52 AM, LocalHero1953 said:

The divide seems to be between those who use AFc and those who don't. I can't remember the last time I used AFc, but I have no problem getting in-focus images with AFs with moving subjects - not fast action sports or BIF (that's not what I shoot), but dancers, actors, children, travel/street - focus is just not a problem I have with them.

I don't see Leica's AFc getting up to the standard desired by some here any time soon. The only solution is to move to another camera: but this time don't buy it till you've checked it out!

I think your post sums up the position very well for Leica, on a personal note you quite rightly outline what you use and how you use it. I suspect many people (myself included) really come from an AFs type approach. However, where I've been going with my posts is that this has actually narrowed the market and opportunity for Leica with the SL2's relatively poor AFC performance for new users; many photographers today now just see this as a given to be at least at an 'average' level for FF. The only item of equipment that I feel slightly let down on from Leica has been the SL2, with the slightly over hyped improvements in AF when it was launched.

I completely agree it was never meant to rival Sony's sports camera's for example but today the timing really hasn't been kind to Leica in that whilst we all continue to enjoy using our SL's, sales of new SL2's to converts to the brand and approach has become more challenging over the last 6 months. The dealer I mentioned earlier now has more used SL2's in stock than SL's and I gather that trade-in's funny enough broadly rank GFX100's, R5 and a long shot on the A1, which probably shows where SL shooters interest are anyway!!

For potential new users of the SL2 there is just so much noise now on the 'sub par AF performance' it's almost becoming a given for a review, for example I've just seen two reviews of the new Sigma f2's whereby the reviewer mentions a) it's available on the Sony mount where the AF performance is much better (rather obvious) b) but for the L mount the Panasonic S5 is well ahead of the Leica's, along with the the rest of the Panasonic range, in terms of AF with these lenses. These continual references rather support what many photographers are looking for in their camera's in this fiercely competitive sector. For Leica it's a relatively new world or course but the position today I think is very different to when the SL was first introduced.

So in conclusion I don't think (and many others in here) that the gap to acceptable AF is as wide as some would have it, so the disappointing element is that Leica aren't really giving any confidence that they intend to address this in the SL2 and why is this? They've already committed to an SL2-S update (and I suspect have made more sales as a result) but silence on the flagship and we're nearly 18 months in.

Edited March 5, 2021 by SJH

[tom0511]

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vor einer Stunde schrieb hillavoider:

Ok this is getting somewhere therapy wise 

however “technique” and “skill” have ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO with really bad auto focus can we just all get over that 

it’s a sensor and an algorithm you are fighting 

I allways though a forum is a place to exchange experiences, to help eachother, and to discuss, even if experiences and opinions are different. You can call it "therapy" (sometimes), I call it exchange of user experience and "discussion".

If, however, one is looking just for confirmation that the gear discussed is bad and not really working, thats ok. I would call it "bashing".

So no, I dont agree it is a really bad AF (and at the same time I do not say it is a really great AF) and just because some are "fighting" it doesnt mean others are fighting it too.

So can we get over it that for some people the AF os the SL is "good enough" for many applications (its not good enough for all applications for me by the way), and for others it is not?

Here is a sample image with the SL and 135 Sigma. I paid 2 kids from the other team to stop my daughter so that the AF of the SL2 had a chance to take an image of her.

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Edited March 5, 2021 by tom0511

[hillavoider]

Ok 👍 nice photo with bad gear, I agree 

[Succisa75]

3 hours ago, SJH said:

I completely agree it was never meant to rival Sony's sports camera's for example but today the timing really hasn't been kind to Leica in that whilst we all continue to enjoy using our SL's, sales of new SL2's to converts to the brand and approach has become more challenging over the last 6 months. The dealer I mentioned earlier now has more used SL2's in stock than SL's and I gather that trade-in's funny enough broadly rank GFX100's, R5 and a long shot on the A1, which probably shows where SL shooters interest are anyway!!

For potential new users of the SL2 there is just so much noise now on the 'sub par AF performance' it's almost becoming a given for a review, for example I've just seen two reviews of the new Sigma f2's whereby the reviewer mentions a) it's available on the Sony mount where the AF performance is much better (rather obvious) b) but for the L mount the Panasonic S5 is well ahead of the Leica's, along with the the rest of the Panasonic range, in terms of AF with these lenses. These continual references rather support what many photographers are looking for in their camera's in this fiercely competitive sector. For Leica it's a relatively new world or course but the position today I think is very different to when the SL was first introduced.

I’m hearing this from retailers and stores as well. This is not just  Leica, but for all L Mount except S5. Even then the uptake is a fraction of the other mirrorless cameras.  Reality is the lifespan of the SL2 will more than likely be significantly shorter than the 601. My guess we will prob see an update or refresh within a year or so. 

This is only the beginning of 2021 and we are seeing big changes in the mirrorless market. The slow burn updates Leica is used to are not going to work in this market segment and will cause retailers with stock they cannot move to have fire sales like the “open box S1R” in late 2019 many jumped on. 
 

 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Succisa75

[tom0511]

It is a clever strategy to bring product "upgrade" every 6 months. And good marketing to make some believe that the next generation is soo much better than the previous. I often get caught by GAS myself. Wasting a lot of money. Imagine 2 new Leica SL bodies a year (like Sony or Fuji), I would be ruined financially.

[Simone_DF]

11 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

It is a clever strategy to bring product "upgrade" every 6 months. And good marketing to make some believe that the next generation is soo much better than the previous. I often get caught by GAS myself. Wasting a lot of money. Imagine 2 new Leica SL bodies a year (like Sony or Fuji), I would be ruined financially.

Panasonic is already working on new cameras, it was announced last week. I expect them to have a more powerful processor and a much faster AF. What do you think it's gonna happen to the sales of the SLs when users can keep their lenses and simply switch body?

[LD_50]

5 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

Panasonic is already working on new cameras, it was announced last week. I expect them to have a more powerful processor and a much faster AF. What do you think it's gonna happen to the sales of the SLs when users can keep their lenses and simply switch body?

I can’t see Leica ever competing with the Japanese companies on staying at the cutting edge of technology with quick releases. They won’t beat Sony at their own game.

They have to focus on staying profitable with smaller sales numbers. Great customer service and listening to and engaging with customers will help. If you purchased an SL, an SL2, or an SL2-S when new, they were not at the cutting edge of technology at release time. Nothing will change in that regard when the next Sony or Fuji or Panasonic body is released. If you need to bridge the gap on technology and you’re invested in the L mount, you can buy a Panasonic and then come back later when an SL3 is released. 

[tom0511]

vor 16 Minuten schrieb Simone_DF:

Panasonic is already working on new cameras, it was announced last week. I expect them to have a more powerful processor and a much faster AF. What do you think it's gonna happen to the sales of the SLs when users can keep their lenses and simply switch body?

I know what I did when the S1r came up: I bought one , liked it and some of the "new" features, after some time missed the User interface of the SL, sold S1r and bought a SL2, well knowing its weak points but enjoying the strong points.

Do you really expect wonders?  I bet the next Pana will also "JUST" be another mirrorless with a little better AF but still not on the level of CaNikon sports cameras AF. But who knows, maybe I will be one of those who jump on it. By the way I really enjoy the PANA L-Mount Zooms and often use them over the Leica Zooms, because of smaller size/portability and I love the range of the Pana 20-60, and the IQ is "good enough" for my taste.

[tom0511]

vor 17 Minuten schrieb LD_50:

I can’t see Leica ever competing with the Japanese companies on staying at the cutting edge of technology with quick releases. They won’t beat Sony at their own game.

They have to focus on staying profitable with smaller sales numbers. Great customer service and listening to and engaging with customers will help. If you purchased an SL, an SL2, or an SL2-S when new, they were not at the cutting edge of technology at release time. Nothing will change in that regard when the next Sony or Fuji or Panasonic body is released. If you need to bridge the gap on technology and you’re invested in the L mount, you can buy a Panasonic and then come back later when an SL3 is released. 

What I think is sad is that Leica really has good ideas, but then sometimes doesnt develop the next models.

I mean the Leica S2 really was the first compact DSLR like medium format camera. The SL was the first mirrorless FF built on a professional solid quality, top display, 2 sd cards, etc. and with a really great EVF. At the same time I say the AF is "ok" for me, I wonder why Leica has not included phase detection in the 2nd generation of those cameras, or at least into the SL2s.

 

[LD_50]

33 minutes ago, tom0511 said:

What I think is sad is that Leica really has good ideas, but then sometimes doesnt develop the next models.

I mean the Leica S2 really was the first compact DSLR like medium format camera. The SL was the first mirrorless FF built on a professional solid quality, top display, 2 sd cards, etc. and with a really great EVF. At the same time I say the AF is "ok" for me, I wonder why Leica has not included phase detection in the 2nd generation of those cameras, or at least into the SL2s.

 

Leica hasn’t included PDAF most likely for two reasons: 1- Panasonic doesn’t offer it. 2- IQ can suffer when it’s included.

I think the first reason is 99% of it. 

I do think Leica did a good job developing the SL2 and SL2-S, hence my upgrade. The only thing I’m really missing is PDAF and the potential AF improvements. 

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, tom0511 said:

I know what I did when the S1r came up: I bought one , liked it and some of the "new" features, after some time missed the User interface of the SL, sold S1r and bought a SL2, well knowing its weak points but enjoying the strong points.

Do you really expect wonders?  I bet the next Pana will also "JUST" be another mirrorless with a little better AF but still not on the level of CaNikon sports cameras AF. But who knows, maybe I will be one of those who jump on it. By the way I really enjoy the PANA L-Mount Zooms and often use them over the Leica Zooms, because of smaller size/portability and I love the range of the Pana 20-60, and the IQ is "good enough" for my taste.

The S1r and the SL2 had exactly the same performances. You're comparing more or less the same camera in a different body shell and with Leica tweaks applied. 

An updated S2r will be much more better performing, in particular AF, especially compared to the current Leica vaporware firmware strategy. That will make a difference for potential buyers when deciding where to spend money.

And no, I don't expect wonders, with their stubborn DFD-only strategy they won't reach Sony/Canon AF not even in the next 10 years, but I do expect a reasonably working AF-C autofocus for cameras produced these days.

[Simone_DF]

1 hour ago, LD_50 said:

I can’t see Leica ever competing with the Japanese companies on staying at the cutting edge of technology with quick releases. They won’t beat Sony at their own game.

They have to focus on staying profitable with smaller sales numbers. Great customer service and listening to and engaging with customers will help. If you purchased an SL, an SL2, or an SL2-S when new, they were not at the cutting edge of technology at release time. Nothing will change in that regard when the next Sony or Fuji or Panasonic body is released. If you need to bridge the gap on technology and you’re invested in the L mount, you can buy a Panasonic and then come back later when an SL3 is released. 

You're looking at it from the point of view of somebody who has already purchased a SLx camera, but you have to look at it from the point of view of a new buyer.

Let me put it this way: what are people interested in joining the L mount from scratch going to buy in winter 2021? An SL2 whose AF we don't even know if it will (or can) get improvements or a brand new Panasonic S2r at half the price and double the performance? 

[LocalHero1953]

17 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You're looking at it from the point of view of somebody who has already purchased a SLx camera, but you have to look at it from the point of view of a new buyer.

Let me put it this way: what are people interested in joining the L mount from scratch going to buy in winter 2021? An SL2 whose AF we don't even know if it will (or can) get improvements or a brand new Panasonic S2r at half the price and double the performance? 

Possibly buyers for whom AFc isn't the main criteria for buying a camera? And who value other elements of a camera's handling and performance? 

[LD_50]

50 minutes ago, Simone_DF said:

You're looking at it from the point of view of somebody who has already purchased a SLx camera, but you have to look at it from the point of view of a new buyer.

Let me put it this way: what are people interested in joining the L mount from scratch going to buy in winter 2021? An SL2 whose AF we don't even know if it will (or can) get improvements or a brand new Panasonic S2r at half the price and double the performance? 

I am looking at this from the point of view of someone who chose the SL system over all the others. I don’t have a huge SL lens investment so I could switch without a large loss. I wrote an entire thread about how I viewed camera system choice. 
 

I think you’re looking at this from the perspective that Leica will need to outperform the others in AF to stay viable. I don’t agree. They never have before in digital cameras and likely never will. Price alone keeps Leica out of most people’s list of potential choices. 

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Hallo,

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[Tailwagger]

7 hours ago, tom0511 said:

I paid 2 kids from the other team to stop my daughter so that the AF of the SL2 had a chance to take an image of her.

Roughly the same technique here. I kept in the family and paid my son to hold the cat down. 😀

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Fabulous lens the 135 ART... just a little iffy in low light.