Really, new cheap(er) film M in 2021 ?

[earleygallery]

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57 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

Then why did Leica discontinue the summarit range? 
And where is the commercial rationale for any niche company that has built itself on perceived exclusivity to make new products with less profit?

I said before, too many people assumed that the 'cheap' Summarit range was inferior to 'real' Leica lenses, so they'd save a bit more to buy a Summicron, or buy used.

It's a problem they might have with a new 'cheap' film body but then again the new body might offer something different.

As they can't apparently make enough film M's to meet demand a simpler to produce and maintain body might be a good way for them to steer their film body business.

 

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[earleygallery]

1 hour ago, Ouroboros said:

You seem to be saying that a new film camera that is smaller and cheaper than a new MP or M-A would be enough to make it viable.  The CLE wasn’t exactly a runaway success when film was the only choice, though, so despite the fact that I agree it’s an interesting idea, I’m sceptical of the commercial feasibility. 

 

The CL/CLE were introduced when the vast majority of 35mm film camera sales were SLR's and they were very much niche products at that time. OK a film Leica is also a niche product but how many other new 35mm cameras are their for people to choose from?

I think a new film Leica - pitched correctly in terms of features and price - will do very well.

[Ouroboros]

23 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

 

As they can't apparently make enough film M's to meet demand a simpler to produce and maintain body might be a good way for them to steer their film body business.

 

I don't see any merit in that hypothetical course, either. 

Surely if demand for a premium product exceeds supply, then the obvious thing to do is increase production rather than introduce a cheap alternative.

To be clear, I'm not saying it won't happen, Leica's history has revealed numerous seemingly illogical decisions in the past that have both succeeded and failed*. 

What I am saying is that I don't see any commercial sense in what is being rumoured. 

*The Sofort hasn't exactly taken the market by storm, yet the MP/M-A alc option has been discontinued and there would seem to be enough interest to make reintroduction worthwhile,  if comments on this forum are worth consideration. 

 

Edited January 3, 2021 by Ouroboros

[Knipsknecht]

vor 33 Minuten schrieb earleygallery:

It's a problem they might have with a new 'cheap' film body but then again the new body might offer something different.

 

I think this is an important thought - they have to offer “something different” AND they have to take into account the needs and wishes of the analog revival crowd. Just introducing a “cheap” (3.000€?) film camera probably wouldn’t do the trick. It has to be something new and unique, and this could even be a service. Think a fee model that contains film development and scanning - in the most natural “Leica colors” or a specialized bnw. Maybe they could even find a film company to work with, introducing specialized “Leica films”? And then - of course - community building. Create satisfied users, listen to their needs and wishes and react appropriately. Something like this could - maybe - do the trick.

But a crippled M6 definitely not - especially when “cheap” means “Leica cheap” (aka still much too expensive for most enthusiasts, especially the young ones).

Edited January 3, 2021 by Knipsknecht

[oldwino]

I would think that Leica should improve their service department(s), hire more analog camera techs, train them, and make more money repairing the old cameras than make the investment in a new one. 
Is it true there is only one person dealing with film cameras in Wetzlar? How would a new camera be sustainable in that situation? 

[Ouroboros]

33 minutes ago, earleygallery said:

The CL/CLE were introduced when the vast majority of 35mm film camera sales were SLR's and they were very much niche products at that time. OK a film Leica is also a niche product but how many other new 35mm cameras are their for people to choose from?

 

That's a question you might ask Nikon since they recently discontinued the F6, imo without doubt the best 35mm slr ever made and a camera whose sales always exceeded production and is now even more in demand used.

[earleygallery]

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19 minutes ago, Knipsknecht said:

I think this is an important thought - they have to offer “something different” AND they have to take into account the needs and wishes of the analog revival crowd. Just introducing a “cheap” (3.000€?) film I camera probably wouldn’t do the trick. It has to be something new and unique, and this could even be a service. Think a fee model that contains film development and scanning - in the most natural “Leica colors” or a specialized bnw. Maybe they could even find a film company to work with, introducing specialized “Leica films”? And then - of course - community building. Create satisfied users, listen to their needs and wishes and react appropriately. Something like this could - maybe - do the trick.

But a crippled M6 definitely not - especially when “cheap” means “Leica cheap” (aka still much too expensive for most enthusiasts, especially the young ones).

I can't see that happening, and think it would be a huge mistake in any case. The beauty of film is choosing the film and style you want and there are still quite a few options to choose from thankfully.

[Herr Barnack]

On 12/31/2020 at 10:00 PM, Herr Barnack said:

I hereby suggest that this proposed Magnesium bodied Leica be named the Mg 12.

 

I would like to see a Leica entry level kit consisting of this proposed lower cost film M body, paired with a newly resurrected 35mm f/2.4 Summarit lens for around $4000-4200 USD.  This pricing could be possible if both pieces were made in the Leica Portugal facility.

This would open up the M camera world to a whole new demographic of people who have wanted an M camera but just cannot not afford the $8900 USD price of admission for an M-A and a 35mm Summicron.  

I think this move would bring in many new Leica M users and would create a lot of goodwill in the world of photography for Leica, both of which would be a very good thing.

Edited January 3, 2021 by Herr Barnack

[Matlock]

5 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

  This pricing could be possible if both pieces were made in the Leica Portugal facility.

 

But the M-A and MP are already made in the Portugal plant, only final assembly takes place in Wetzler (the 35mm Summicron is also made in Portugal).

[Herr Barnack]

I did not know that. 

My proposed entry level Leica kit would still be a nice thing to see, even if the price has to be higher than what I proposed above.

[Ouroboros]

3 minutes ago, Matlock said:

But the M-A and MP are already made in the Portugal plant, only final assembly takes place in Wetzler (the 35mm Summicron is also made in Portugal).

And good used, no compromise Leica M's will still be plentiful at whatever price point this rumoured camera might be aimed at.  

[logan2z]

2 minutes ago, Ouroboros said:

And good used, no compromise Leica M's will still be plentiful at whatever price point this rumoured camera might be aimed at.  

That's true, but I think there are many people wary of buying a 20-50 year old camera for $2K-$3K and then having to foot the bill to fix issues that might arise.

If used Leica prices were like used Nikon prices (an excellent body and lens for $200 or less) then I'd agree that there isn't much need for a new, cheaper M film camera,, but with M6 prices heading north of $3K I think a  new, high-quality film camera in that price range would do well.  

[Ouroboros]

2 minutes ago, logan2z said:

but with M6 prices heading north of $3K I think a  new, high-quality film camera in that price range would do well.  

Why would that not potentially drive used M6 et al prices down with the risk of diverting those same budget-concious buyers away from the new MC(heapo)?

[RayD28]

The more I think about this topic the more I see business failure.  

Who is the target market for a new Leica film camera with a light meter?  Existing Leica film users that will skip past used M6s?  It better be <$3,000.  And what would you get besides a 2-year warranty and a reliable source of replacement parts for the next 10 years?

New-to-film users that will skip past used Nikon, Canon, and Olympus SLR bodies for about $200 and decent glass for about $100?  It better be <$2,000 and have a lens line-up <$200.  

Blackstone Group owns 45% of Leica.  They expect 20% to 30% returns on their investment annually.  

 

[28framelines]

1 hour ago, RayD28 said:

The more I think about this topic the more I see business failure.  

Who is the target market for a new Leica film camera with a light meter?  Existing Leica film users that will skip past used M6s?  It better be <$3,000.  And what would you get besides a 2-year warranty and a reliable source of replacement parts for the next 10 years?

New-to-film users that will skip past used Nikon, Canon, and Olympus SLR bodies for about $200 and decent glass for about $100?  It better be <$2,000 and have a lens line-up <$200.  

Blackstone Group owns 45% of Leica.  They expect 20% to 30% returns on their investment annually.  

 

As someone who _does not own a Leica yet_, this is an extremely compelling option for me. I want a Leica, but to pay $4500-5000 CAD for an M6 ie silly if I can buy one brand new (MP for a couple grand more, or M-A which is what I’d prefer, at $6500). If you really think about that, at that inflated cost for an M6, I may as well get brand new with warranty and know the thing is gonna be covered if I have issues with it (at least for a couple years), since the cost for a repair on an older camera will cost me the difference between new and an old M6 anyway, or close to it.

So no, this is not going to be a failed business venture. I’m _very intrigued_ by a cheaper film M.

[Fontan]

On 1/2/2021 at 4:47 AM, plasticman said:

This sort of comment has been done to death by now. Makes me wonder why people who make it insist on contributing their predictable negativity - even on a forum where the cheapest digital Leica M would buy film (for an average user) for probably around a decade, if not longer.

It’s because the word “cheap“ is in the title of the thread. Me personally I am not bothered at AT ALL by the price tags Leica stuff carry. My point was that film or digital, it’s not much different in the end. Your perceived negativity just may stem from your own insecurity, perhaps?

Edited January 3, 2021 by Fontan

[adan]

You gotta understand that plasticman is our long-time "film evangelist." Kinda like Guy Kawasaki and Apple.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evangelism_marketing

"Keep the Faith, Baby!"

[RayD28]

1 hour ago, 28framelines said:

As someone who _does not own a Leica yet_, this is an extremely compelling option for me. I want a Leica, but to pay $4500-5000 CAD for an M6 ie silly if I can buy one brand new (MP for a couple grand more, or M-A which is what I’d prefer, at $6500). If you really think about that, at that inflated cost for an M6, I may as well get brand new with warranty and know the thing is gonna be covered if I have issues with it (at least for a couple years), since the cost for a repair on an older camera will cost me the difference between new and an old M6 anyway, or close to it.

So no, this is not going to be a failed business venture. I’m _very intrigued_ by a cheaper film M.

I hear you and hope something good happens. There would be tremendous demand and lots of revenue if Leica offered a new film camera for about $3,000.  But not a good deal for Leica if the camera cost $3,100 to make.   

What fewer features or less quality would you accept and still pay $3,000?  Using the M-A as an example, what type of cost cutting, totaling $2,500, would you accept?  Cheaper parts,  made in Indonesia?  One step further, what features does Leica need to keep exclusive to the M-A to maintain M-A sales?

With more financial information we could dig deeper but with what little I know I'm not convinced the company would grow it's bottom line.  

I interviewed for a job once and the owner, very successful and a good man, told me his company offered three things: Quality, Price, and Service -- pick two.

That saying does not apply to all businesses but it does for most.  

 

 

 

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[a.noctilux]

Some suppositions (from me 🙃).

- like the case of M-A for example which when in late 2014 was launched, I didn't believe that was real, so when possible I've purchased

as my last film M to be used as films last, I had MP at that time.

In my view it didn't make sense that Leica offered film M without lightmeter, but that idea pleased me a lot

 

- I supposed that Leica "offered" M-A on sale just for "status" and did not make so much profit with that camera

- I suppose now that the feeling of "film return" all over the world may give some more business to gain

- so why not boost "film M sale" with another film M with much more selling units lowering the price 

- I suppose also that the training film M workers is part of the equation

...

- lastly I suppose that the planning units sold/made can be the decisive factor with simple math ( 3 K€ or 4 K€ x 1k units = 3M€ or 4M€ of possible sum)

can this be enough business for some years to come ?

 

- I can think of "Gillette Style Marketing", make/sell M bodies at lost to sell more lenses ( why not ? )

[earleygallery]

51 minutes ago, RayD28 said:

 

What fewer features or less quality would you accept and still pay $3,000?  Using the M-A as an example, what type of cost cutting, totaling $2,500, would you accept?  Cheaper parts,  made in Indonesia?  One step further, what features does Leica need to keep exclusive to the M-A to maintain M-A sales?

 

 

I think you need to forget the M-A and imagine starting from scratch.

As I said earlier in the thread, a die cast body or moulded body should cost less. A bought in shutter (metal focal plane) will be less costly and quicker to assemble than the cloth shutter of the M-A. A less complex rangefinder assembly (fewer frame lines perhaps?). They would seem the obvious areas to cut costs, cost of materials, cost of production. Use of third party manufacturers with final assembly in Germany as with some of their other products?