SL2 vs SL2-S for video

[setuporg]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

What are the differences between the two when shooting video, in general?

What about 4K @ 60fps?

If you select one for video blogging, which one is better?

My approach was to use SL2 for family trips where I take photos and videos of the kids.  Looks like the 47MP SL2 is still preferable for photos.

[Advertisement]

The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Slender]

Ah... big dilemna for me too.

As of today, they share the same recording specs (not mentioning high iso performances here for now) if my memory serves me well:

• Both can do 60fps in 420 8bits internal on SD OR 60fps 422 10bits via HDMI (aka Atomos Ninja 5).
• Both cameras make do without a lowpass filter: sharper image but can be problematic for moire/alliasing in video
• Everyhting up to 30fps can be shot in Log or HLG, 10 bits at 422 chroma subsampling in .MOV. You can choose your flavor of ALL-i or Long-GOP.
• The future firmware update promises (hopefully to both camera) 4K 60p at 422 internal (probably with LongGOP only?) along with other nice monitoring tools integration.
   

Differences I manage to remember top of my head include:

• SL2 uses pixel binning/mixing from its 47Mp sensor (8K in full-frame, 6K APS-C) to get a DCI, UHD or FHD output, in FF or APS-C. It does not skip lines of pixel, so the image is very sharp: that can cause some alliasing on fine structure... the effect seems reduced when using APS-C.
• SL2S is using what is described as an over sampling method from its 24mp sensor (6K FF, 4K aps-c). Alliasing still seems to show its nose, but I had no information if samples I saw were shot with FF or APS-C (in theory the pixel count is so close in APS-c we might call it a pixel-to-pixel readout).
• SL2 has a very niche 5K pixel-to-pixel readout mode in 4:3 😍 for the most daring, crazy people who want to use anamorphic lenses (or shoot indoor dramas like Xavier Nolan's...etc or crop afterwards with plenty of margin). Strangely this mode is long-gop 200mbs in 420, but allows for 10 bits, in L-Log (no hlg for some reason I am curious to learn why).
• SL2s should have the upper hand in low light scenarios, however the SL2 can perform very good when properly set.
• Rolling shutter of the SL2 is exemplary low for sensor size, especially compared to the competition (14-16ms in FF, estimated below 10ms in APS-C)... SL2s has the potential to be even better in that regard, but it is too early to know more in depth... not enough tester as for a Sony a7sIII...

[LocalHero1953]

The SL2-S has no artificial 30 min limit to video recording. Depending on what you are doing, this is a massive or unimportant difference.

I suspect Leica could have eliminated this limit in the SL2 (or even the SL) but chose not to. It might be because Leica has put a special effort into heat dispersion in the SL2-S. If so, and given the larger number of pixels in the SL2 (as input, if not as recorded output), there would be greater heat generation in the SL2 which might impose limits on in-camera video processing and future higher spec formats. All this is speculation, of course.  

Edited December 26, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[Slender]

A rep of leica technician New Jersey  said it is because the 47mp generates more heat. In both case files are limited to 96gb in size. Unless you are doing interview or live performance recording, it is quite rare you need to record continuously for such a (long) time. And if you do this for a living you are better off with another camera system, or at least use an external recorder.

So I dug the manuals of both camera extensively: turns out my intuiton on the APS-c mode of the SL2s was right, it is a full scan! This should make for slightly less "surrealistic sharpness", better resistance to alliasing/moire et faster rolling shutter. However, it seems both cameras use the "pixel mix" algorythm (see Film and Digital Times magazine about the SL2 and SL2s) for FF modes. The difference is the SL2s processes from 6K to 4K (from 24 million pixels to roughtly 8.84 million), SL2 from 8K to 4K (47 to 8.84 million).

here is the attached screen caps. First one is the SL2s, second is SL2.

Side note: the fact that the SL2s uses 12 bits mode for stills at 25ims is the confirmation it is the Sony sensor that was rumored.

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

Edited December 26, 2020 by Slender

[Daedalus2000]

4 hours ago, Slender said:

 

• Rolling shutter of the SL2 is exemplary low for sensor size, especially compared to the competition (14-16ms in FF, estimated below 10ms in APS-C)... SL2s has the potential to be even better in that regard, but it is too early to know more in depth... not enough tester as for a Sony a7sIII...

14-16ms in FF, estimated below 10ms in APS-C

Is this really the case for SL2? That is very impressive. If you find for the SL2-S please let us know

[LocalHero1953]

9 minutes ago, Slender said:

A rep of leica technician New Jersey  said it is because the 47mp generates more heat. In both case files are limited to 96gb in size. Unless you are doing interview or live performance recording, it is quite rare you need to record continuously for such a (long) time. And if you do this for a living you are better off with another camera system, or at least use an external recorder.

True. My video work actually is interview and live performance (when we can do such things again), so the 30 min limit is important to me. For those doing both still or video for a living Leica will always be niche, but, as an amateur wishing to do both still and video, an L-mount system is working well. 

Interesting about the 96Gb limit. When I can find a 128Gb card I'll test it out.

[Slender]

Advertisement (gone after registration)

It might not "cut" the recording, just split the video into 2 files (some other cameras do this).

The upcoming h265 HEVC update will split video recordings into sub-files of 1 minute each. A good idea to foolproof the camera and go below the initial battery limitations.

What would be truly amazong would be ProRes in Camera. This way you could make do with a monitor like the shinobi and keep everything else internal... but I am not holding my breath....

Local Hero if you are into lengthy recordings, you should look into the Atomos NinjaV if you havent already. It is an investment but it allows so many great things, and storage is more cost efficient than memory cards. Especially if you do low/light and tripod work, the wonderful 10 bit screen allow you to preview the whole scope of your image, it takes my SL2 to another level. Handheld if properly rigged, it allows you to shoot from any angle of view.

Check out Kinsgton canvas react cards: great value and quality, OEM made:
https://www.buykingston.co.uk/kingston-128gb-canvas-react-plus-sd-sdxc-card-uhs-ii-u3-v90-300mb-s-r-260mb-s-w?gclid=CjwKCAiA25v_BRBNEiwAZb4-ZarYWhIRytfaZodgnkVUb6si6jaRbZyrNuZ7eJM_FYtxzWKf43xijRoCutoQAvD_BwE

The included reader is the fastest I had ever seen.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Slender

[LocalHero1953]

13 minutes ago, Slender said:

It might not "cut" the recording, just split the video into 2 files (some other cameras do this).

The upcoming h265 HEVC update will split video recordings into sub-files of 1 minute each. A good idea to foolproof the camera and go below the initial battery limitations.

What would be truly amazong would be ProRes in Camera. This way you could make do with a monitor like the shinobi and keep everything else internal... but I am not holding my breath....

Local Hero if you are into lengthy recordings, you should look into the Atomos NinjaV if you havent already. It is an investment but it allows so many great things, and storage is more cost efficient than memory cards. Especially if you do low/light and tripod work, the wonderful 10 bit screen allow you to preview the whole scope of your image, it takes my SL2 to another level. Handheld if properly rigged, it allows you to shoot from any angle of view.

Check out Kinsgton canvas react cards: great value and quality, OEM made:
https://www.buykingston.co.uk/kingston-128gb-canvas-react-plus-sd-sdxc-card-uhs-ii-u3-v90-300mb-s-r-260mb-s-w?gclid=CjwKCAiA25v_BRBNEiwAZb4-ZarYWhIRytfaZodgnkVUb6si6jaRbZyrNuZ7eJM_FYtxzWKf43xijRoCutoQAvD_BwE

The included reader is the fastest I had ever seen.

Thank you. I already have a BM Videoassist 4k, which I have not used much - it was intended for performances with more challenging focusing and lighting, but most of my work for the last 9 months has been simple static talking head stuff (church services, academic talks/demos and interviews) - I've mostly used the Sigma fp, mains powered and recording to a Samsung T5 SSD, which makes a nice light bundle of kit.

I saw your suggestion of Kingston too late - I have some Sandisk 128Gb on order - meanwhile I realised I have two of the same cards sitting unused in the BM Videoassist.

[scott kirkpatrick]

I saw the 1 min clips option in Leica's marketing materials.  Yes, they will butt together in a timeline, but it seems like a pain to have to put them all there one by one.  If a play's first act runs 60 minutes, that 60 scraps of film to keep together.  Is there a convenient way to put them together into just a few longer segments and then only cut where needed?

I've shot plays a few years back with Olympus m43 gear.  I had to stop and start each camera during blackouts, and hope that I didn't miss anything in the sound track that would prove important.  So 30 minute timeouts are an issue I am glad to see go away.  A partial solution is to record sound externally and continuously, with something like a MixPre3, and then synch the video to the higher quality sound track, line input on one track, audience and room on another. 

Edited December 26, 2020 by scott kirkpatrick

[Photoworks]

8 minutes ago, scott kirkpatrick said:

I saw the 1 min clips option in Leica's marketing materials.  Yes, they will butt together in a timeline, but it seems like a pain to have to put them all there one by one.  If a play's first act runs 60 minutes, that 60 scraps of film to keep together.  Is there a convenient way to put them together into just a few longer segments and then only cut where needed?

I don't think they said that you will sendup with 60 clips. it is just that it will be saved in 1 min periods. this way on power issue just a sub minute will be lost.

It is still going to be a incapsulated .MOV file.

[Slender]

https://www.fdtimes.com/pdfs/free/106FDTimes-150m-Jan2021.pdf

 

free read about Leica's sl2s

[Aaron Daniel]

Hi all, 

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I just picked up the SL2-S last week and finally had the time to do a test run with it. I'm coming from the SL2, and before that, the Sony A7 system cameras.

TL;DW - The video capabilities of the SL2-S does seem to be significantly better than the SL2. I don't have direct comparisons in this video, but based on past work with the SL2 and now seeing these first test shots with the SL2-S, I'd recommend the SL2-s for video– specifically so if you aim to colour correct and grade anyway. The ASA/ISO noise is a lot nicer on the eyes.

 

[Slender]

Thanks for doing this. I wish you did your indoor test at 24fps.... 60fps is not really interesting for cine applications.

[Aaron Daniel]

Ahh yes, fair enough! At the time of recording, I was really trying to push the camera to it's extremes and didn't realize how it would affect the exposure as well– will have to do another test. Is there anything else you would be interested in??

[Mick H]

10 hours ago, Aaron Daniel said:

Hi all, 

I'm not sure if this is the right thread for this, but I just picked up the SL2-S last week and finally had the time to do a test run with it. I'm coming from the SL2, and before that, the Sony A7 system cameras.

TL;DW - The video capabilities of the SL2-S does seem to be significantly better than the SL2. I don't have direct comparisons in this video, but based on past work with the SL2 and now seeing these first test shots with the SL2-S, I'd recommend the SL2-s for video– specifically so if you aim to colour correct and grade anyway. The ASA/ISO noise is a lot nicer on the eyes.

 

Hi Aaron,

Wow!  Thanks for sharing this info.  What codec do you record to on the Ninja V?  What LUTs do you use for L Log?  Your Leica L Log color grading workflow is of keen interest to me as this type of info is hard to come by.  How do you expose for L Log?  I use an SL and S1H.  The SL2-S was not available when I picked up my S1H.  I do like the fully articulated screen on the S1H.  But I am considering the SL2-S and Ninja V combo.  

Mick

[Aaron Daniel]

Hi Mick,

Thanks so much for the kind words  

My codec recording settings on the Ninja V were ProRes 422 

The LUTs I use are just general LUTs found online (some from Lutify.me). I know there aren't really any dedicated LUTs out there for Leica's L-Log, so I've just been playing with varying ones dedicated for Sony (as that was my old system of cameras). This means there are still major colour correction applied.

The general colour correcting+grading workflow is as follows:

1. External recording to the Ninja V L-Log in ProRes 422 (I expose for the midrange at the moment, but still need to see if exposing for highlights or shadows is better)
2. I've only used this footage with Final Cut Pro so far, so import directly into FCP 
3. Apply general creative or base LUT found online 
4. Correct and adjust colours for preference

At the time of recording my above video, I didn't know Atomos had updated their Ninja V to view Leica's BT2020 – I am unsure what this would change at the moment, but if it changes the file type to be read as BT2020 in my editing software, it may colour a little nicer. The reason I say this is that when I record internally to the SL2-S, the files on my macbook are read as REC2020, whereas the externally recorded Ninja V files are read as REC709. I don't know if this is a big issue, but would love to know if this means there are any major differences needed in colouring workflow.

In terms of the swivel screen, I miss it as well. I used to shoot on the Sony A7 cameras, and although they are just a tilt screen, I miss that ability. However, this isn't felt when I record on the Ninja V anyway. The swivel screen is only missed when I am taking photos without the monitor. I would highly recommend the Ninja V if you are looking into getting the SL2-S. 

I am very jealous of your S1H having the ProRes RAW recording ability. Do you find that it makes a significant difference in comparison to 10-bit ProRes?

[simon_hsn]

Hi Aaron, Leica released four official LUTs for Leica L-Log. You can download the LUTs here: https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Leica-SL2-S/Downloads

 

the natural ones with a little added saturation is super nice.

 

the fact that Atomos just released firmware 10.61 with official Leica SL2-S support for Log monitoring makes me hopeful we see ProResRaw support very soon.

 

 

[simon_hsn]

Other models will also be supported soon according to the Atomos newsletter from today

 

 

 

 

 

Welcome, dear visitor! As registered member you'd see an image here…

Simply register for free here – We are always happy to welcome new members!

[Advertisement]

Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[Aaron Daniel]

52 minutes ago, simon_hsn said:

Hi Aaron, Leica released four official LUTs for Leica L-Log. You can download the LUTs here: https://en.leica-camera.com/Photography/Leica-SL/Leica-SL2-S/Downloads

 

the natural ones with a little added saturation is super nice.

 

the fact that Atomos just released firmware 10.61 with official Leica SL2-S support for Log monitoring makes me hopeful we see ProResRaw support very soon.

 

 

Aaah yes, thank you so much, Simon! Just downloaded and hope to try this out today

[Mick H]

I don't have a Ninja V yet to get ProRes RAW from the S1H.  I am experimenting with V Log and L Log.  The new Leica LUTs are promising in the sense that Leica is finally stepping up to support a Leica LOG workflow.  Your pro insights are greatly appreciated as you have made the investment in the SL2 and now the SL2-S.  It's a big commitment.

I believe this forum needs more video info as Leica cameras are becoming more hybrid in purpose.  The SL2-S is billed as a hybrid camera.  Maybe a LUT and color grading thread with samples can be started on this forum to keep the discussion going.  I support Leica growing on the video side.  Thanks again for posting your samples and thoughts.  I look forward to your opinion of the Leica LUTs.