Future implications for M10/M10-R of the SL2/SL2-S paradigm?

[Guest Nowhereman]

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No one knows what the future configuration of the M10/M10-R successor cameras will be, but many feel that, with the SL2-S having come out with 24 MP, a future M10 camera successor with about 24 MP is assured — and thankfully so. (Note: I’m considering only still images since I don’t shoot video.)

In one of the SL2-S threads some people are concluding that the SL2-S is the best non-M camera for M-lenses; and better in this respect than the SL2, considering better high ISO performance and, possibly, better color. In my view, this is similar to the difference between the M10/M10-P and the M10-R. 

I’ve had no interest in the M10-R simply because my photography, which is usually high-contrast, does not need more resolution, even for large prints. In the days of film, the forum-wallahs of the old Leica groups, said that Leica film cameras could be used for prints up to 11x14 inches and that, after that, you “needed” medium format. 

Not me: I always liked the “35mm aesthetic” of Tri-X film: and was convinced of that when, around 2006, I saw a retrospective Daido Moriyama exhibition at the Gallery of New South Wales which had some 60 photos at 150x100 cm (60x40 inches) — all shot on Tri-X and printed of an Epson wide-format inkjet printer. More recently, Moriyama has been using a digital camera with a sensor the size of one's finger-nail which shoots only JPGs, the Nikon Coolpix 6500, I believe — and he still exhibits prints at the 150x100 cm, as I saw at a dazzling exhibition of his Tokyo images at the Fondation Cartier in Paris in 2015. 

So you see where I’m coming from. I’ve had no interest in the M10-R, as not only don’t I need its higher resolution but also prefer the smaller files of the M10, which has better high ISO than the M10-R and doesn't need high shutter speeds for eliminating camera shake for handheld photography: @Steven has found that most of his M10-R shots at less than 1/500 sec shutter speeds exhibit camera shake. While some M10-R users state that their camera has better dynamic range than the M10, the graphs on the photonstophotos.net site don’t support that, and indicate the that the M10 may even have a slight advantage in this respect: if you look at the Photo Dynamic Range Chart and, particularly,  the  Photo Dynamic Range Improvement chart for the M10 vs the M10-R.

I shoot with an M10 and a Ricoh GR III, both 24 MP cameras. With the M10, I prefer the OVF and haven’t used the Visoflex EVF that I bought with the camera. With the GRII, I shoot one-handed, and use the LCD on the back only to establish, roughly, the edges of the frame — and look directly at the subject when pressing the shutter. With both cameras, I’m usually interested in the immediacy of the photography. 

One of the things I like about the GR III are two of its, adjustable, JPG modes: High-Contrast B&W and Positive Film. I shoot DNG + JPG, and have found, most of the time, that these JPG modes get me closer to where I want to be with the final image than working with the DNG — and much faster. 

With the M10, I shoot only DNGs, but feel that Leica should introduce JPG modes that are as good as these two GR III ones. The other thing the GR III has is excellent IBIS. So, my three desiderata for the M10 successor are that it have (1) a 24 MP sensor, (2) good JPG modes, and (3) IBIS — although the latter may be unlikely.

As the image that one can produce is the most important consideration for me, I’ll conclude with three images (that I’ve posted elsewhere). Two are landscapes, because this is the genre for which people generally feel they need maximum MP and the third could be called a “street portrait”. (I'm not being critical of people who want high-resolution landscapes, but am only stating what I like for my work).

M6 | DR Summicron 50 | Tri-X | Stand development | Wiang Pa Pao

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M10 | DR Summicron 50 | ISO 200 | f/5.6 | 1/350 sec | Wiang Pa Pao

M10 | DR Summicron 50 | ISO 400 | f/5.6 | 1/60 sec | Bangkok

Incidentally, Erwin Puts, in his current blog post, with the title "24 or 47 MP?", feels that Leica has made ill-considered decisions in going to 47 MP, although his argument is not that coherent.
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Frog Leaping photobook

Edited December 17, 2020 by Nowhereman

[Jeff S]

More specifically, Puts wrote that the L mount was a mistake altogether for Leica. And that all digital is going in the wrong direction, while he retreats to film. His tone is increasingly bitter.

Jeff

Edited December 17, 2020 by Jeff S

[a.noctilux]

 

Nowhereman, nice read,

while waiting ...

why not try Monochrom MM1 or M246 ?

[Guest Nowhereman]

^ I had the MM1 together with the M9 and sold both to fund the M10. While I liked the MM, I preferred, overall, being able to use "digital color filters" in processing color M9 or M10 color files.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[a.noctilux]

I understand.

Suggestion for just the PP part VS good jpeg that you talked about.

 

M246 is fun using with colored filters in the field.

Not possible to be able to play with color channels after that in PP.

[lb1800]

Nice post NWM. My only current upgrade wish for an M11 is a higher magnification viewfinder option to make shooting with a 90 easier. 

[Dennis]

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M10 + Ricoh Gr III = Killer combination!

I had the Gr first version, and I loved it. Both Jpegs and DNG are gorgeous. 

7 hours ago, Nowhereman said:

So, my three desiderata for the M10 successor are that it have (1) a 24 MP sensor, (2) good JPG modes, and (3) IBIS — although the latter may be unlikely.

IBIS would be a grateful feature for sure, but I doubt it's possible. An M camera would be bigger with this technology implement, I guess. There is no more space. And second, besides it's a great and helpful feature on many cameras, I feel that it goes against Rangefinder essence. I don't need help 😂 All mechanic, all natural, all raw. It feels better. It's another game if Leica makes a fusion between the M and the SL system.. So I camera like the Fujix100v ... Rangefinder look, small size, IBIS, flip screen and ....... EVF ..... Ladies and Gentlemen, I may present you, the brand new Leica Portugal ML 11... What about that?

🤔 ... 🤦‍♂️

By the way, if I were you, I would print your photos on 60"x40" ... Specially the second one (tree) 👏👏👏

[Guest Nowhereman]

^ Thanks. I have printed all three at 60 x 40 inches.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[jdlaing]

Proper tools, and proper techniques, for the proper situation. If you get blurry images you’re doing it wrong.

[oldwino]

1 hour ago, Steven said:

I confirm that the M10R, at least for me, produces very often blurry photos. Very often mean 80% of the scenarios in which I shoot below 1/250th. I have talked about this with a lot of people in many threads and through PM, and I came to the simple conclusion that it's just too many megapixels for a non stabilised camera system like the M. To skip you a lot of details, I believe that the R is good camera for landscape shooters, or people that shoot very slowly, ideally with no moving subjects. 

 

Interesting. I have a 50MP non-IBIS camera, the Hassy X1D, and I don't have blurry images (at least not that often). Must be the leaf shutter helping me out here. 

I would have bet that the issue with the M10-R would be rangefinder accuracy, and not the shutter. 

[ynp]

9 minutes ago, Steven said:

Same issue with live view, which discarded the RF argument. It was the first thing I though too. Trust me, I spent time looking at this issue from every angle I could. 

Maybe a grip bottom plate will help you to stabilize the camera? 
I don’t have too many unsharp images from the M10r. And it helps that I am used to my heavy S3 and Rollei 6008 AF. 

[mujk]

With the SL2-S Leica has clearly been looking at what several other manufacturers are doing, i.e. coming out with parallel models of their higher end bodies, one with a high-res sensor and one with a lower-res, high-iso one. One driver for the latter is of course video, but even for stills there is a need for both. Let's hope Leica will do the same also for coming models in the digital M series.

Edited December 19, 2020 by mujk

[Kwesi]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:25 PM, Nowhereman said:

No one knows what the future configuration of the M10/M10-R successor cameras will be, but many feel that, with the SL2-S having come out with 24 MP, a future M10 camera successor with about 24 MP is assured — and thankfully so. (Note: I’m considering only still images since I don’t shoot video.)

 

With the M10, I shoot only DNGs, but feel that Leica should introduce JPG modes that are as good as these two GR III ones. The other thing the GR III has is excellent IBIS. So, my three desiderata for the M10 successor are that it have (1) a 24 MP sensor, (2) good JPG modes, and (3) IBIS — although the latter may be unlikely.

 

Lets look at this from Leica's point of view:

1- The SL2-S is a reflection of the intense downward price pressure and competition Leica faces in the Full frame mirrorless market - both from within the L consortium and from Sony, Nikon and Canon. The M has no competition so no need for a "budget" version of its flagship model.

2- Good jpg modes ala Ricoh GRIII is quite possible and Leica knows IBIS would be welcomed as long as it doesn't increase the body thickness.

 

[jaapv]

10 hours ago, oldwino said:

Interesting. I have a 50MP non-IBIS camera, the Hassy X1D, and I don't have blurry images (at least not that often). Must be the leaf shutter helping me out here. 

 

You must not compare MPs, but pixel sizes.

[David_miller70]

As someone who has just entered the world of Leica with a M10-R, I really don’t like this thread 😞

Edited December 19, 2020 by David_miller70

[Kwesi]

On 12/17/2020 at 1:25 PM, Nowhereman said:

So, my three desiderata for the M10 successor are that it have (1) a 24 MP sensor, (2) good JPG modes, and (3) IBIS — although the latter may be unlikely.

Actually, you may easily get your first wish if Leica decides to offer a 24MP DNG option along with  full (40?)MP output in the M11

[Guest Nowhereman]

25 minutes ago, David_miller70 said:

As someone who has just entered the world of Leica with a M10-R, I really don’t like this thread 😞

Really? The M10-R is a great camera for someone who needs the high resolution and does not need "immediacy". That is to say, "immediacy" is a positive aspect only for users who want that but not necessarily for others: no value judgment in the abstract, different people want different things.
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Frog Leaping photobook

[Kwesi]

In what way(s) does the M10-R lack immediacy?

[Knipsknecht]

vor 15 Stunden schrieb Steven:

Sorry I'm late to the party, just noticed this thread. 
Very nice read, NWM. Actually, it's an amazing coincidence I ended up here, because I was going to start a similar thread myself and you just saved me some time. 

I confirm that the M10R, at least for me, produces very often blurry photos. Very often mean 80% of the scenarios in which I shoot below 1/250th. I have talked about this with a lot of people in many threads and through PM, and I came to the simple conclusion that it's just too many megapixels for a non stabilised camera system like the M. To skip you a lot of details, I believe that the R is good camera for landscape shooters, or people that shoot very slowly, ideally with no moving subjects. 

Unfortunately for me, I shoot people and things that move, and most of the times these people don't stop to pose. So the R is completely unmanageable, to the point that it hasn't left the house in a month. 

In the meantime, I purchased on day one an SL2-S, and it is the best Leica Camera (for me) that I have ever tried. I use it exclusively with M lenses (stills & video) and its an enormously enjoyable experience. M lenses, good low light, and IBIS, coupled with EVF focusing means that (if it is not a stolen shot where I cant look at the camera) I focus faster than Sony's eye detect., and nail 90% of my shots. 
The camera is so good that I thought of selling my M10R and saying goodbye for ever to the M system. But reading this thread, I went back to my memories, and just had a crazy idea: "downgrade" to the M10P.

To purchase the M10R, I traded in my M10P and added 2,8k. I called the shop today and they said they would take my R back with a 20% devaluation (which is a good offer for the Leica store, since they are just taking it back for the price I paid minus the VAT). They still have my M10P, and I hope I'll be able to exchange it and be done with it. Because if they force me to buy a new item, I will have to trade my M10R and add 1K extra to get a new M10P. But the worst is that I am considering it! Why, because I remember how much I used to love the M system when I had the P. I used to shoot nice photos. And because I also know that none of the very few nice photos I got with the R needed more than 24MP. I got hit by GAS, and I learned the lesson. I want my P back. 

Kudos for your honesty👍!

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[LBJ2]

42 minutes ago, David_miller70 said:

As someone who has just entered the world of Leica with a M10-R, I really don’t like this thread 😞

Fear not. Steven wrote what he experienced with his M10-R is a result of his personal style of shooting. Steven is a very good photographer, nice guy and someone I feel is very genuine about describing his experience. It happens! The forums across the internet are packed with complaints about various camera models, brands, technologies, lack of technologies, colors etc. 

The good news is you own the M10-R. You can try this out for yourself with your own style of shooting. My only caution is, if this is the first Leica Rangefinder you've ever used and if you are like me that learned photography using very high MP Auto Focus cameras, it took me some weeks to become equally proficient with my first Leica Rangefinder maybe about two weeks to get over my initial shock TBH.