Thoughts on new SL2-S

[SStomcat]

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Just took the plunge and got myself a Q2, should I have waited ?

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The Leica Q3 is available for pre-order at B&H Photo Video and Adorama

[Leica Guy]

The BSI is very interesting and perhaps suggests that this technology is now available to Leica. I hope we see that on a Q3 someday. It enables better low light performance. Along with IBIS would make a Q3 an even more spectacular camera. 

[M11 for me]

What does BSI bring. In the advertizing we just can read about increased dynamics. Is it known what it means in terms of figures.

[SrMi]

5 hours ago, Leica Guy said:

The BSI is very interesting and perhaps suggests that this technology is now available to Leica. I hope we see that on a Q3 someday. It enables better low light performance. Along with IBIS would make a Q3 an even more spectacular camera. 

BSI does not enable better low light performance. It enables faster readouts, which can help autofocus.

[M11 for me]

I loking firward to an intersting discussion here. I just trued a bit to goole BSI and found a video from red dot forum. 

 

And indeed the low light capabilities seem tobe incredible.

[Leica Guy]

6 hours ago, SrMi said:

BSI does not enable better low light performance. It enables faster readouts, which can help autofocus.

Not my understanding. Placing the metal on the backside increases the efficiency of each pixel. 

[SrMi]

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1 hour ago, Leica Guy said:

Not my understanding. Placing the metal on the backside increases the efficiency of each pixel. 

It is mostly helping with low light on small sensors. When Sony and Nikon switched to BSI it did not help low light performance in their cameras. BSI also helps with the corners for certain lenses.

The sensor in SL2-S is of different kind than the one in SL2, apparently, which may have better low light performance regardless of BSI.

Other significant low light improvements would be dual-gain design, like Sony a7rIII has.

Edited December 11, 2020 by SrMi
Added dual gain comment.

[_Michael]

I didn't watch the entire video, but I think enough to much better understand the positioning of this body.  My initial reaction was one of meh, okay. Interesting. Now, this is different. At some point I could see myself getting one. I'm one of those people who really doesn't want/need the 47mp images. This is making sense to me now. 

[M11 for me]

Re the low light capabilities due to BSI technology we will probably have to wait for real life tests: In other videos such photographs start to be shiwn and then it does not seem that the advantage is more than 1 stop or maybe even less. But there must be an advantage given the fact that there is more space on a surface when the technical componants move to the back of the sensor. At firs sight this sounds plausible. I am very much exited obout such options.

[M11 for me]

vor 16 Stunden schrieb SStomcat:

Just took the plunge and got myself a Q2, should I have waited ?

No, well done. The Q2 has his niche. No doubt. Re my photography the niche is hughe as I love wide angle. In cases that I have to go out with my Canon I have most time only 3 lenses: 24-70 2.8 then a very fast 50mm plus a fast 135mm. For most private situations I see in Lightroom that even with the Canon gear I shoot between 28 and 60mm most time then the Q2 just covers that very well when we include its cropping capabilities. Wide angle is great: Give it a bit of foreground. You will love it as I do (and my wife as it is her camera).

[jaapv]

19 hours ago, SStomcat said:

Just took the plunge and got myself a Q2, should I have waited ?

The Q series and SL series are chalk and cheese The Q is designed to be a top quality take-everywhere camera that encumbers the user as little as possible, the SL series is a professional platform for use with top lenses, accessories for special needs, etc. You did not choose a sensor, you chose a camera concept.

[Dr. G]

On 12/10/2020 at 3:29 PM, SrMi said:

BSI does not enable better low light performance. It enables faster readouts, which can help autofocus.

I can only speak from experience as I had the Q2 and still own the SL2.  I picked up the SL2-S as well (I'm keeping both the SL2 and The SL2-S).  The SL2-S, whether it is due to the sensor or not, has far better image quality in low light than the Q2 and the SL2.  Less noise at equivalent ISO, better shadow recovery and better color fidelity at higher ISO.  Shadows can also be pulled up far greater than with the Q2 or SL2.

 

That being said - I would buy a Q2 variant with the same sensor and processing as the SL2-S in a heartbeat.

[SrMi]

1 hour ago, Dr. G said:

I can only speak from experience as I had the Q2 and still own the SL2.  I picked up the SL2-S as well (I'm keeping both the SL2 and The SL2-S).  The SL2-S, whether it is due to the sensor or not, has far better image quality in low light than the Q2 and the SL2.  Less noise at equivalent ISO, better shadow recovery and better color fidelity at higher ISO.  Shadows can also be pulled up far greater than with the Q2 or SL2.

 

That being said - I would buy a Q2 variant with the same sensor and processing as the SL2-S in a heartbeat.

It seems clear that SL2-S has better high ISO behavior than Q2 and SL2, likely because of a new sensor vendor (Sony). It may have a similar dynamic range as Sony A7rIII or Nikon Z 6 II:

https://www.photonstophotos.net/Charts/PDR.htm#Leica SL2,Nikon Z 6II,Sony ILCE-7M3

[LocalHero1953]

On 12/10/2020 at 8:29 PM, SrMi said:

BSI does not enable better low light performance. It enables faster readouts, which can help autofocus.

Quote from Wikipedia:

Quote

A back-illuminated sensor, also known as backside illumination (BSI or BI) sensor, is a type of digital image sensor that uses a novel arrangement of the imaging elements to increase the amount of light captured and thereby improve low-light performance.

I'm not an expert, so can you explain?

[SrMi]

7 hours ago, LocalHero1953 said:

Quote from Wikipedia:

I'm not an expert, so can you explain?

Further down in that Wiki page:

... with the greatest difference realised when pixel size is small,[citation needed] as the light capture area gained in moving the wiring from the top (light incident) to bottom surface (paraphrasing the BSI design) is proportionately smaller for a larger pixel.
 

Thom Hogan wrote up a page on BSI sensors when Sony was launching a7rII: on small sensors like 1" RX100, the DR improvement was 1/3 of a stop; he did not expect much change on FF because of BSI and the measurements confirm it BSI (a7rII) vs. non-BSI (a7R). 

Similarly to Sony, when Nikon switched from a non-BSI sensor (D810) to a BSI sensor (D850), the main difference is improved low-light performance because of dual-conversion gain (DCG). I would assume that SL2-S also incorporates a (stronger?) DCG.