EXPANDING THE LEICA MARKET: Leica Pricing, Markets Addressed, Economics of New & Used

[Archiver]

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On 10/7/2020 at 2:56 AM, pgk said:

Interesting. When I buy equipment I tend to see it as a 10 year investment (although I prefer it to last much longer). If it is still going strong and worth money after 10 years then I'm more than happy. So far my Leicas have more than filled my requirements of them as they have lasted a long time and are still worth considerably more than other contemporary, equivalently priced cameras. Competing is about far more than matching specification.

My M9 has reached the 10 year mark and would be considered a decent purchase for its price. The same can be said, ironically, for my 13 year old Canon 30D and 11 year old 5D Mark II. the latter of which shot a wedding just a couple of weeks ago alongside the M9 and Panasonic G9. At the same time, a M9 still goes secondhand for about $3000+ in Australia, but the Canon would be lucky to get $600. I don't sell my gear, so resale value is meaningless to me. It's about how much money I make from them, and how much enjoyment I get.

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[Herr Barnack]

On 10/2/2020 at 2:09 AM, Tom1234 said:

Has Leica priced only for the super rich not the middle class or even worker-who-can-save?

 

No.


 

An M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826 together cost $10,990 USD.  I know of many middle class people who have spent that much or more on -

a fishing boat
a personal watercraft (jet ski)

a water skiing boat

a motorcycle

an ATV 


a snowmobile
an above ground swimming pool
a bolt action rifle and a big game hunting trip to Alaska/Montana/British Columbia/Northwest Territories

a fly fishing expedition to Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia (I actually know a middle class guy who did this)
building a regular truck into an off road "monster" type truck
 (there are many of those here in fly-over land)

 

If a middle class person can afford any of the above, they can afford an M10 Monochrom or M10R and a Leica M lens for it.

 

In these parts - and in many other places around the world - middle class people think nothing of buying a $40,000 car or truck.  Buy a $29,000 car or truck instead and you have the $10,990 in reserve to buy the above mentioned M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.  Or an M10R with a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.

 

It all comes down to priorities.

 

 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[Jeff S]

But the gas that the car or truck requires costs significantly less than the GAS associated with Leica gear.

Jeff

[Archiver]

1 hour ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

In these parts - and in many other places around the world - middle class people think nothing of buying a $40,000 car or truck.  Buy a $29,000 car or truck instead and you have the $10,990 in reserve to buy the above mentioned M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.  Or an M10R with a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.

 

It all comes down to priorities.

I know an 18 year old who, as a builder's apprentice, has saved enough money to buy himself two motorbikes for about $4000 AUD each. That's a secondhand M240 with three Voigtlander lenses, or one or two secondhand Zeiss lenses. Maybe even a secondhand Leica Summicron 50. It's definitely about priorities. Imagine what he will be able to afford as a registered and licensed builder.

[cboy]

I recall the M-E(240) & M262 rrp was around 4-5k new, which is what the OP was wanting. Although not their flagship, along with the summarit line, they were meant to bridge the more budget friendly divide. Cant say how successful it was but given they discontinued the summarit line im not sure if they succeeded. More likely the feature set of the leica m line is not, or will ever be as appealing of the feature rich bells and whistles of other flagship cameras. Leica's marketing is no different than any other luxury brand that differentiate themselves through real or perceived 'quality'; none more evident than in their special editions. The sl2-s pricepoint looks promising however.

But i get the OPs point that the second hand market is cannibalising their sales due to the high price point, perhaps more now than ever before since real wages growth lags more than inflation. The question is what is leica intending to do about it since their 'affordable budget' lines didnt seem to capture the market. Its interesting to speculate what leica is next move, or will they continue on as they have been doing and rely on other divisions to shoulder the camera department...time will tell

Interesting discussion. I think it favours Leica that planned obsolescence is the name of the game in the digital era. Electronic parts cant be sourced as easily and sensor supply will always be 'limited'. 

 

[LocalHero1953]

The fundamental point here is that Leica is profitable as it is, unlike almost any other camera maker. That doesn't mean that they cannot or shouldn't change, but it is a big challenge to armchair corporate strategists..... baby, bathwater etc. 

I've been into Leica (non-exclusively) since 1981. The M4-2 was a total pipe-dream to me, so I bought a M3 and lenses s/h. I bought my first new product (M9) in 2011. Nobody has to buy new. As long as the rich keep buying new there'll be plenty of affordable s/h bodies and lenses for everyone else. 

Edited December 22, 2020 by LocalHero1953

[cboy]

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I wouldnt be surprised if leica made a m10 variant (m10-S/E?) that would be a second or third tier to the next flagship M and will at least put their sensor supply to good use..like what they did with the M-E

 

[FrozenInTime]

On 10/5/2020 at 10:22 AM, Tom1234 said:

I still believe if Leica would release a camera at a new price, just above the entry level prices of other makers (at about $3,500 to $4,500) as others sell at $2,500, they might double sales.  Yes, I could be overly enthusiastic, but wouldn't even a 25% rise in sales be nice?

Not necessarily - Economics 101 : If your factory is running at 100% capacity, you maximize profits by choosing NOT to make the lower margin budget items in house.

The CL line is likely quicker to make than a M camera and by outsourcing most of the lens production to Asia, you keep the high margin capacity in house available.

The SL2-S now cost less than a M-A or MP film camera ; likely quicker to make and I suspect the SL lenses are also designed for manufacturability, so more profits again. 

[Tom1234]

9 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

 

No.


 

An M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826 together cost $10,990 USD.  I know of many middle class people who have spent that much or more on -

a fishing boat
a personal watercraft (jet ski)

a water skiing boat

a motorcycle

an ATV 


a snowmobile
an above ground swimming pool
a bolt action rifle and a big game hunting trip to Alaska/Montana/British Columbia/Northwest Territories

a fly fishing expedition to Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia (I actually know a middle class guy who did this)
building a regular truck into an off road "monster" type truck
 (there are many of those here in fly-over land)

 

If a middle class person can afford any of the above, they can afford an M10 Monochrom or M10R and a Leica M lens for it.

 

In these parts - and in many other places around the world - middle class people think nothing of buying a $40,000 car or truck.  Buy a $29,000 car or truck instead and you have the $10,990 in reserve to buy the above mentioned M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.  Or an M10R with a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.

 

It all comes down to priorities.

 

 

 

Sorry but Amerians are not this rich anymore. 

[Tom1234]

12 minutes ago, FrozenInTime said:

Not necessarily - Economics 101 : If your factory is running at 100% capacity, you maximize profits by choosing NOT to make the lower margin budget items in house.

The CL line is likely quicker to make than a M camera and by outsourcing most of the lens production to Asia, you keep the high margin capacity in house available.

The SL2-S now cost less than a M-A or MP film camera ; likely quicker to make and I suspect the SL lenses are also designed for manufacturability, so more profits again. 

The smaller format cameras are a dead end.  They don't show the full "character" of older lenses just the center.  You end up needing two groups of lenses: the half frame Aps-C "short" lenses and the full frame "standard" 35mm format lenses. This too is not affordable but too expensive as you buy lenses for two kits.  Wandering over to CL is just increasing the cost for the user's total kit cost.  

I owned a TL2 which was a finicky camera with an undependable focus peaking feature, and a too slow to use menu mess, even though it was configurable... a great disappointment that I sent back to the store. Throwing the "old bone" of a lessor format camera to camera buyers is no solution for Leica. Kodak did the same with ultra cheap drug store sold cameras and it hurt their reputation ultimately. I owned a Panasonic point-&-shoot, and found that, that small format camera did not have the quality and dependability built in that full frame cameras have yet the small format camera's price was high enough to be a non-trivial expense 

Leica's main cameras need a lower price that gives the volume of sales necessary to also have a good repair department.  They could not fix my Tri-Elmar 28-35-50 and charged me $800 anyway and they gave it a new problem, vignetting. 

It does Leica no good to deny problems by making excuses for them. They live in a German Ivory Tower  (which is okay) and they need the knowledge of the man-in-the-street to know what to do next, read on...

Missing the chance to add a decent, but not fastest, auto focus and leaving that to Techart, is a missed opportunity.... it could have been called a landscape and portrait auto focus as opposed to the Asian camera's sports focus systems.  They should legitimize the slower focus with the necessary marketing effort. 

Anyway, life and business (the service of others, a most legitimate  profession) can be like a soccer game, with the ball flowing anywhere around the field and you have to deal with wherever it goes, but always with intelligent actions and economy of action.  This is what I suggest, to play the game, and not price oneself so high into the market of a custom engineering firm with ultra low sales, that produce even used prices so high, that a user can hardly sell their used camera because it sells for two or three times a new camera from Asia, that is objectively better anyway.  The SL2-S is a good step in this direction.  I think it will take a year or more to "reset" the Leica price though. 

Presently, with so many new release cameras coming out from all makers so quickly, buyers  must constantly repurchase to keep up.  Even Nikon is forcing long term loyal users to buy new lenses in their Z line by crippling their mirror lens adapter with insufficient features leaving off F-Mount aperture control and autofocus (which you must buy from Techart).  This exhausts the buyer's funds and ends any sense of equipment longevity-&-loyalty.  If you have higher camera turnover then you must lower the price not raise it.  I think this must be part of the reason that Erwin Putts and Steve Huff are taking a Leica review sabbatical (or completely quitting reviewing Leica they say) since so many incremental changes, that might have been firmware sale-able or free download-able, have overstressed the ability of even the most committed reviewers to spend on these cameras.  

A good reasonable "life cycle" for a consumer product is 10 years of usability, even though toward the end it will be lacking verses new product, and not broken after ten years still usable though antiquated.  The 3 to 5 year cycle makes a camera too expensive for a hobby. 

Anyway you look at it... it is an interesting economic study... and each of us is a submarket, with our personal different economic conditions, so we each have a slightly different evaluation of the features and costs.  Then there are trolls.... which I have been told by an intelligent source, die in their own stench in the afterlife. 

[Herr Barnack]

3 hours ago, Tom1234 said:

Sorry but Amerians are not this rich anymore. 

It seems to vary, depending on geography and career choice.

A friend in Duluth reports pretty much business as usual - middle class people in that area continue to spend low five figure sums (the cost of an M10R and a 50/2 Summicron) on power boats (thanks to Lake Superior being at their doorstep) and snowmobiles.  Here in flyover land, there is no shortage of megadollar 4x4 trucks and jeeps - it's a "thing" for a lot of people in this area.  I see high end trucks that have to sell for $40-50K as is off the dealer's lots.  Then I see the built up muscle trucks - $40-50K trucks with easily $10K or more in aftermarket modifications.

In another life, I was an aircraft mechanic for the now mergered out of existence U.S. Air Express.  A&P mechanics do not make nearly as much per hour as a union electrician or bricklayer who holds a journeyman's card but they can do well with overtime.  It was not unusual for a jet mechanic to log enough overtime hours to pay for an M10R and a lens or two in a year's time. 

My fellow A&P mechanics never bought Leicas, though - which was always simply incomprehensible to me. 

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[mmradman]

13 hours ago, Archiver said:

I know an 18 year old who, as a builder's apprentice, has saved enough money to buy himself two motorbikes for about $4000 AUD each. That's a secondhand M240 with three Voigtlander lenses, or one or two secondhand Zeiss lenses. Maybe even a secondhand Leica Summicron 50. It's definitely about priorities. Imagine what he will be able to afford as a registered and licensed builder.

This example 18 year builder will eventually end up with a partner who will control household budget.

[Archiver]

5 hours ago, mmradman said:

This example 18 year builder will eventually end up with a partner who will control household budget.

He's seen firsthand the perils of matrimony and controlling partners, and receives intermittent advice about asset protection. He will be okay. Fingers crossed. 😄

[mmradman]

31 minutes ago, Archiver said:

He's seen firsthand the perils of matrimony and controlling partners, and receives intermittent advice about asset protection. He will be okay. Fingers crossed. 😄

Thrill of spending first money on exciting things can be hard to beat, motorcycle is probably mor exciting than camera to an average 18yo male. Should be ok providing he doesn’t do anything stupid with one of the motorbikes, fingers crossed.

[Herr Barnack]

4 hours ago, Archiver said:

He's seen firsthand the perils of matrimony and controlling partners, and receives intermittent advice about asset protection. He will be okay. Fingers crossed. 😄

Don't marry a control freak, maybe??

[Archiver]

2 minutes ago, Herr Barnack said:

Don't marry a control freak, maybe??

Yep, pretty much!

[Herr Barnack]

A buddy of mine once scraped and saved up over a period of two plus years to pay cash for a motorcycle he had his eye on.  When it came time to buy the bike of his dreams, his fiancée began to try to coerce him into not buying it, saying "we're going to need that money for more important things once we are married." 

I asked him what he did.  "I kicked her ass to the curb and bought my motorcycle," he replied.

And he lived happily ever after. 😎

Edited December 23, 2020 by Herr Barnack

[willeica]

On 12/22/2020 at 3:07 AM, Herr Barnack said:

 

No.


 

An M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826 together cost $10,990 USD.  I know of many middle class people who have spent that much or more on -

a fishing boat
a personal watercraft (jet ski)

a water skiing boat

a motorcycle

an ATV 


a snowmobile
an above ground swimming pool
a bolt action rifle and a big game hunting trip to Alaska/Montana/British Columbia/Northwest Territories

a fly fishing expedition to Kamchatka Peninsula, Russia (I actually know a middle class guy who did this)
building a regular truck into an off road "monster" type truck
 (there are many of those here in fly-over land)

 

If a middle class person can afford any of the above, they can afford an M10 Monochrom or M10R and a Leica M lens for it.

 

In these parts - and in many other places around the world - middle class people think nothing of buying a $40,000 car or truck.  Buy a $29,000 car or truck instead and you have the $10,990 in reserve to buy the above mentioned M10 Monochrom and a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.  Or an M10R with a 50mm f/2 Summicron # 11826.

 

It all comes down to priorities.

 

 

 

If I had never heard of Leica before the mentality you describe here would cause me never to buy one. Thankfully, I had heard of Leica before, but I must admit that my interest is in the history of Leica and the vintage models, particularly those made before 1950, and not in most of the current offerings. The 'mine is bigger than yours' mentality which you describe would be met with derision where I live.

William

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[Herr Barnack]

5 hours ago, willeica said:

If I had never heard of Leica before the mentality you describe here would cause me never to buy one. Thankfully, I had heard of Leica before, but I must admit that my interest is in the history of Leica and the vintage models, particularly those made before 1950, and not in most of the current offerings. The 'mine is bigger than yours' mentality which you describe would be met with derision where I live.

William

The thought process of "I'll forgo buying one non essential thing in order to be able to buy the Leica camera of my dreams" would cause you to never buy a Leica??  I don't understand.

I will agree with you that reactionary, unchecked consumerism becomes obnoxious very quickly - but I don't think making conscious sacrifices of one non essential for another (and yes, Leica cameras and lenses are non essentials) could be described as reactionary, unchecked consumerism. 

To each his/her own, though.  None of us can please everybody at once.

[jaapv]

11 hours ago, Herr Barnack said:

And he lived happily ever after.

And she lived much happier ever after than she would have done with this jerk, I wouldn't wonder.