Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!)

[Chaemono]

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Am 12.9.2020 um 07:35 schrieb AZN:

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Yes I know it won't work properly with most M lenses wider than 50mm.  Yes I know the manufacturing and image quality is greatly inferior to the M10/ M10P/ M10R.

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It's not just with wider than 50mm M lenses that Sony sensors don't work. There is significant color-shift in the corners with the 75 Summicron-M, for example. In #6 here it's basically the same sensor as in the α7C just in the Lumix S5:

 

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[Fgama]

On 9/19/2020 at 5:42 AM, Dennis said:

Don't you think that more advanced photographers out there (and here), not influencer, vlogger, or part-time photographers, prefer Fujifilm over Sony?
I had in the past the first version of the X100, and I loved it. It was not my top, but they say X100v is so much better than the previous version. Or cameras such as XT-4 ... I heard great things about it. And I also see many people using the Sony FF mirrorless. The IQ, large quantity of third parts lens/accessories, it's very customizable.
For the people here having M system and mirrorless cameras (but not Leica L-mount), which brand do you use/prefer? Panasonic, Fuji, or Sony?

 I never considered Fuji because the lack of FF cameras under $2.5k

I have used and still own several systems from m4/3rd  Oly EM5, APSC Fuji XT2 & X100. I have always been intrigued by Leica. I recently tried M10 and was quite smitten by it but still rather apprehensive being manual rangefinder. I don’t think I could make justice to that $$$ with my photography. I got Q2 instead for many reasons: size, fix lens 28mm 1.7 Lux, macro mode, FF, AF and still give me the taste of Leica. I think this is enough to give my photography a ‘spark’ for now. Maybe will own an M one day....maybe...
 

I will be selling my m4/3rd - love their lenses, excellent quality and small sizes but their sensor is kinda outdated.
 

Will be keeping my fuji as I just love using it. Love it’s colour and film simulation, never have issue with APSC. Just sold my X100F and upgraded to X100V just for the lens upgrade & flip LCD. 

Will be using X100V along with Q2 happily. Oh, and I actually rather enjoy using Q2 in manual focusing now...it’s one of the best manual implementation and train me to slow down. I think they complement each other very well for me.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Fgama

[Dennis]

32 minutes ago, Fgama said:

Will be keeping my fuji as I just love using it. Love it’s colour and film simulation, never have issue with APSC. Just sold my X100F and upgraded to X100V just for the lens upgrade & flip LCD. 

The new X100 version is awesome.

33 minutes ago, Fgama said:

Will be using X100V along with Q2 happily. I think they complement each other.

I understood what you're trying to say and what your preferred features and needs could be, don't know about that. But I disagree with you with that. They are both fixed wide lens camera with EVF. Similar approach. An M10 and X100V (and Q2 too) complement each other because they are two different worlds and philosophies. It could be a killer combination.

Rome wasn't built in a day. You have to give time to the M system. Once you embrace it the RF, it will set you free. 🙌 ... 😂

[Rokkor]

Let’s assume you come from an analogue M and would like to keep and use the M lenses digitally- what would be the best option?  If  you do not want to invest into a digital M body but still use your excellent  glass.

It might not be the 7C, but what could be a good full frame alternative:

• Nikon Z5,6,7?

• LUMIX S5

• Canon R

• Sigma

For the LUMIX I wonder if there is an added benefit using Leica M glass given the fact they are part of the L alliance and the S1 often compared to the SL.

[tom.w.bn]

vor 8 Minuten schrieb Rokkor:

Let’s assume you come from an analogue M and would like to keep and use the M lenses digitally- what would be the best option?  If  you do not want to invest into a digital M body but still use your excellent  glass.

It might not be the 7C, but what could be a good full frame alternative:

• Nikon Z5,6,7?

• LUMIX S5

• Canon R

• Sigma

For the LUMIX I wonder if there is an added benefit using Leica M glass given the fact they are part of the L alliance and the S1 often compared to the SL.

Used Leica SL probably. Costs not so much more (used) than than the others (new).

[Mr.Prime]

I bought the CL to give me a digital camera to use my m-mount lenses with, but unfortunately didn’t bond with the control interface and had to let it go. But now I am opening my eyes, looking for the first time in a very long time at the latest offerings from other mirrorless camera companies. I’m starting to see that the likes of the big names are still not ‘getting it’, except perhaps Fuji. Most are still making cameras that are over burdened with features and controls - just like the way cars have evolved where your steering wheel now looks like a video games controller. I’m hoping things will improve, there are people wanting good cameras at prices they can justify.

 

The advent of back side illuminated sensors means that the limitations of modern CMOS image sensors are going away. All those transistors and metal wires into and out of these shrinking pixels creates stacking issues, puts a burden on microlenses, requires planarization for colour filters etc. With back side illumination the sensor is flipped over, it has no significant stack up issues, but instead it has a nice flat surface to work with. So, should we not start to see that these sensors will work better with wide angle lenses ? Shouldn’t this lead to mirrorless cameras that can be used more successfully with our m-mount lenses ?  I guess it’s the need for microlenses still (to focus the light onto the photo diodes within the pixels rather than let it fall onto the transistor circuitry, even with backside illumination), that sets the limitation on wide angles of incidence.

Edited January 24, 2021 by Mr.Prime

[Dennis]

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11 minutes ago, Steven said:

Have you guys seen the new A1 that sony dropped today ? What a beast of a camera. Cant wait to try it with my M lenses. 

I KNOW! I think it deserves a new thread 😎 In the Barnack bar.

• 9.44m-Dot EVF with 240 fps Refresh Rate
• 5 GHz MIMO Wi-Fi, 1000BASE-T Ethernet
• Blackout free

What?

And some new incredible technologies. I'm really impressed. My Nikon D5 has just lost $1k value in one day 🤣

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Dennis

[Dennis]

17 minutes ago, Steven said:

10 bit 422 in 4K/120 fps with S Cinetone

 

Because I'm not a video guy, I don't know what you are saying lol But I can imagine. Sony just made a statement to the world with this camera release.

If you think that pro EVF are about 3.69M, and the Leica SL's and Sony A7IV are 5.7M ... Now 9M, at 240 with no blackout. It can really makes a huge difference. People are saying that an EVF is life changing, but some are still struggling with the fact that is a TV screen and the blackout and the refresh rate can be awful sometimes. I'm very curious to see through what a 9M EVF is capable of.

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by Dennis

[a.noctilux]

A1 price when available in March 7,300€ ...

 

[a.noctilux]

2 minutes ago, Steven said:

Peanuts, quand tu es habitué à Leica! 

yes true,

happy I'm with Leica M so nice OVF, no black out neither and much more (not in pixels count though) for less money sometimes.

[Dennis]

2 hours ago, Steven said:

the 5M of Leica are twice nicer to look at than the 9M of Sony

blind test? Without to try it first? 🤔 But I think I can see your point. the Leica "view" is more natural and less "electronic" ... Maybe? 🤔 

[Dennis]

2 hours ago, a.noctilux said:

happy I'm with Leica M so nice OVF, no black out neither and much more (not in pixels count though

I'm still working fully OVF. Dslr + RF ... But I don't trust and feel good yet with an EVF ... But I never tried SL2's , or the new Sony.

More Covid restrictions, less hands-on tests with new gear

 

[a.noctilux]

So you tried A1...

Steve, what are "real colors" ?

Maybe EVF color adjust hidden somewhere in the menu ?

If not there, Sony will add it in futur firmware 😉.

[RL88]

On 9/12/2020 at 3:35 PM, AZN said:

There has been a bit of news about it in the last few days - so appologies if this has been posted already:

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-vs-panasonic-gx7-vs-sony-a7iii-comparison/

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/sony-a7c-additional-specs-leaked/

Yes I know it won't work properly with most M lenses wider than 50mm.  Yes I know the manufacturing and image quality is greatly inferior to the M10/ M10P/ M10R.

But… $US 2K (?) for the body; IBIS; a pretty good battery and no rangefinder to drift out of alignment.

Ahem - why cannot Leica do something like this?…

"Yes I know the manufacturing and image quality is greatly inferior to the M10/ M10P/ M10R."

the build quality maybe, but how did you come up with the conclusion about image quality? DXOMark's official testing shows a number of Sony A7series sensors are objectively way better than M10's. I have both Sony A7C and Leica M10, and a list of Leica lenses, my extensive use of both system did give me the impression Sony A7's images are almost always better than M10's.