Sony A7C - poor man's Digital M (?!)

[pippy]

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39 minutes ago, jankap said:

Member Vieri Bottazzini has good results using Leica lenses on his MF camera.

I doubt anyone would say that the A7 series produces poor images.

It all comes down to what the user enjoys using and / or what they require as the best tool for the job at hand. For me and for all my personal snapping the M-D is close to being the perfect camera. For my professional work, OTOH, I use Canon DSLR bodies purely because when I made the switch to digital their software was vastly superior to anything offered by Nikon - and I had been a NIkon SLR user for three decades. I don't like the Canon kit but, as tools for the job at hand, they cannot be faulted.

Philip.

 

Edited September 19, 2020 by pippy

[carbon_dragon]

20 hours ago, pippy said:

Hi, carbon_dragon. Thanks for your considered reply.

Yes; I did eventually cotton-on to what you meant (hence the "I now realise that you were merely discussing the future unavailability of 'bits'" part) but I admit it took me a short while!

I agree wholeheartedly that $8,000 is a considerable sum to invest in a piece of equipment which is almost inevitably going to fail at some point in the future. Neither Leica nor, as you say, anyone else will guarantee that any piece of electronic equipment they sell will function as intended for a decade or so. It is, therefore, up to us as individuals to decide whether or not the results obtained and pleasure experienced through using such an expensive camera will justify our own initial financial outlay - however much it might have been. In my own case I consider that it does.

$800 per year works out at around $2.20 per day. A 'regular' cappucino from my local High St. coffee shop costs $3.25.

I can cut out one coffee per day. No problem at all.

Philip.

 

Well sure, but isn't it true that you'll pay a lot less interest and money overall when you buy a house if you just pay cash up front? Yet few people do. Why is that? Because most people don't have that much money laying around that can be put to the purpose. So as prices go up, fewer people are going to accept that argument. The people that can aren't price sensitive. 

Besides, I'm old enough to remember when coffee was 0.50. Paying $3 or $4 for coffee is still pretty shocking for me.

[jdlaing]

1 hour ago, carbon_dragon said:

Well sure, but isn't it true that you'll pay a lot less interest and money overall when you buy a house if you just pay cash up front? Yet few people do. Why is that? Because most people don't have that much money laying around that can be put to the purpose. So as prices go up, fewer people are going to accept that argument. The people that can aren't price sensitive. 

Besides, I'm old enough to remember when coffee was 0.50. Paying $3 or $4 for coffee is still pretty shocking for me.

What was your yearly income when coffee was .50? What is it now that it’s 4.00?

[carbon_dragon]

40 minutes ago, jdlaing said:

What was your yearly income when coffee was .50? What is it now that it’s 4.00?

0.00 I expect. But coffee was always the "cheap" item on the menu. Course that said, I'm partial to more exotic coffees now. 

[ynp]

The Sony a7c is most probably very capable but...ugly ...

 

[carbon_dragon]

20 minutes ago, ynp said:

The Sony a7c is most probably very capable but...ugly ...

 

Seems pretty similar to the Leica CL.

[Dennis]

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In my case, I would love to get a camera soon, better a FF, and with a minimum 24MP, with tilting or articulating display. I just would love to start to shoot (for fun and precise street photography) using the display, like an influencer LOL. I have my DSLR, my M10 and I'm happy with them for different reasons. But knowing the possibilities with a powerful EyeAF/face detection and a great display, plus IBIS, I don't care about the ugly camera and the complicated menu (that I will set up once).

I would love to have more Leica M lenses and cameras. I'm dying to own a 24 for example, I own only 35-50 combo. But to be honest with you, I know that the kind of shot that I would love to take with a Sony, for example, is not possible with the Leica, at least what I want. Leica sets your mind free to shoot; I love the minimalism, the approach, and obviously, the rangefinder manual focus system. Oh yeah! I'm so happy with it that I decided it will be the first brand that I will keep (camera and lenses) forever. 

But between the limit of 0.7mt focus distance, the no perfect frames, on many occasions, it's about guesstimate, right? Or closer as possible to the reality. But what about I have certain scenes, from below and above, require a super precise framing ... With an M, you can't. And the Visoflex is not always usable.
Do you know what I mean? I'm with Leica, period. But if I want to use other techniques or approaches to achieve other things I want, why not give a try? That's why I'm super curious to try for the first time in my life a tilting or articulated display to play around. Because I'm the kind of guy that loves so much framing the subject, and when is possible, in complex compositions that are not possible without preview.

 

 

[pippy]

2 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

...coffee was always the "cheap" item on the menu. Course that said, I'm partial to more exotic coffees now...

Brilliant news!

In which case by not buying one of these even more exotic and, presumably, even more expensive coffees every day you will pay off your $8,000 camera even sooner!

Philip.

Edited September 19, 2020 by pippy

[AZN]

4 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

Seems pretty similar to the Leica CL.

Hence my remark in the very first post in when I started the thread… why can't Leica do this =/

Basically upgrade the CL to use a modern 24 MP full-frame chip and add IBIS.  Sure it will be expensive, but anything south of $US 5K would be acceptable (! for me!)

[martinot]

7 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

0.00 I expect. But coffee was always the "cheap" item on the menu. Course that said, I'm partial to more exotic coffees now. 

 Brew your own coffee!

 

[martinot]

11 hours ago, Peter Zapp said:

I like the viewfinder right there, with my nose in fresh air rather than squeezed and smearing the LCD. I liked my Hi-Matic, my M6, my NEX-6 for the same reason. 

I fail to comprehend why the majority of mirrorless bodies imitate a faux prism finder, with space left and right from the sensor to accommodate rolled film. It reminds me of early motorcars that adopted design features from horse carriages.

 

It is mostly down to physics. Great viewfinders requires bigger OLED screens and bigger optics/mirrors.

That is why Nikon Z5, Leica SL/SL2, Panasonic S5, Fuji XT-series and Sony A7-series need such big housing for their viewfinders.

That said, one of the better viewfinder I have seen in a "rangefinder" style of mirrorless camera is in the X-Pro series.

But it is always a trade off between EVF quality and size. Nothing right or wrong.

You have to pick your priorities when you go shooting.

[martinot]

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

I would love to have more Leica M lenses and cameras. I'm dying to own a 24 for example, I own only 35-50 combo.

I can warmly recommend the Zeiss Biogon ZM 25/2,8 for your M-camera (do not screw around and use them with adapters on mirrorless cameras - you will not be impressed with results at all). A fantastic lens, with OK size and not expensive at all. Get it now!

[martinot]

5 hours ago, Dennis said:

But between the limit of 0.7mt focus distance, the no perfect frames, on many occasions, it's about guesstimate, right? Or closer as possible to the reality. But what about I have certain scenes, from below and above, require a super precise framing ... With an M, you can't. And the Visoflex is not always usable.
Do you know what I mean? I'm with Leica, period. But if I want to use other techniques or approaches to achieve other things I want, why not give a try? That's why I'm super curious to try for the first time in my life a tilting or articulated display to play around. Because I'm the kind of guy that loves so much framing the subject, and when is possible, in complex compositions that are not possible without preview.

In your use case above I just use one of my DSLR with tilting screen, or one of my mirror less with tilting screen, and a macro lens. Simple as that.

Right tool for the right job.

[Dennis]

13 minutes ago, martinot said:

I can warmly recommend the Zeiss Biogon ZM 25/2,8 for your M-camera (do not screw around and use them with adapters on mirrorless cameras - you will not be impressed with results at all). A fantastic lens, with OK size and not expensive at all. Get it now!

Thank you for the advice, I heard very good things about this lens. But I don't want a Zeiss anymore, I don't like the ergonomic, focus knob, and sometimes too small. With big hands, I struggle sometimes to focus with the 35 Biogon, so small.

9 minutes ago, martinot said:

In your use case above I just use one of my DSLR with tilting screen, or one of my mirror less with tilting screen, and a macro lens. Simple as that.

Right tool for the right job.

I do agree. But all my DSLR don't have tilting screen 😂 I would need D850 or D780, cause with the D5 and D810 is not possible. That's why the D780 is an amazing camera. OVF when needed, great LV like mirrorless. 

[martinot]

15 hours ago, Dennis said:

Thank you for the advice, I heard very good things about this lens. But I don't want a Zeiss anymore, I don't like the ergonomic, focus knob, and sometimes too small. With big hands, I struggle sometimes to focus with the 35 Biogon, so small.

Yes, the focus knob on Zeiss is less pronounced than the Leica focus tabs. Even if I prefer they Leica focus tabs, I do not have any big problems with it myself. I know there are some third party solutions that might be possible to check out for you.

The lens is however absolutely fantastic, and do recommend to try it out and take some photos if you can.

You will love the image quality!

 

15 hours ago, Dennis said:

I do agree. But all my DSLR don't have tilting screen 😂 I would need D850 or D780, cause with the D5 and D810 is not possible. That's why the D780 is an amazing camera. OVF when needed, great LV like mirrorless. 

Yes, true. Not all cameras have it unfortunately.

I have the old D750, and love the articulating screen on it (just like on my mirrorless cameras that have that type of tilting screen).

Would love to see it as standard on all type of cameras! For me it is more important, and a much more usable feature, than touch or WiFi for example.

 

Edited September 20, 2020 by martinot

[Guest]

Regarding the focus bump on zeiss lenses v tab on leica lenses.

I ignore the bump and grip the lens in the same way i would on my old manual focus SLR and for me its much more stable than the leica  tab which i belatedly realised was an unsteady way of holding a camera for me personally.

When using the zeiss 35mm f1.4 and 25mm f2.8  simply  disregard the little nub and grip the lens and focus just as i always did before.

No disrespect for tab lovers of course.

[rramesh]

Something like this should address your concerns for a lack of a tab.

https://www.afshoot.com/shop/product-category/lens-focus-tab/ 

Edited September 22, 2020 by rramesh

[Dennis]

5 hours ago, rramesh said:

Something like this should address your concerns for a lack of a tab.

https://www.afshoot.com/shop/product-category/lens-focus-tab/ 

Hi,

 

Thank you for the link. I sent an email a few weeks ago to Nate of TAAB, and the small Biogon 35mm is not compatible. Or not tab at all (like the 50mm Cron V for example) or it doesn't work with the small knob. What a shame

[derleicaman]

Dennis, I will second that the Zeiss 25/2.8 is a phenomenal lens. I owned the original 24/2.8 ASPH and loved it. Had to pay some bills, so I sold it belatedly. When I got my M9, I got the Zeiss, and it is better than people say. Along the way, I acquired the 24 Super Elmar, which is a great lens too, but I would say owning both that you are not giving anything up to go with the Zeiss. Plus, the Zeiss is a little bigger than some of the other ZM lenses, which should suit you.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica M

[AndreasG]

vor einer Stunde schrieb derleicaman:

I will second that the Zeiss 25/2.8 is a phenomenal lens

Definitely! I use this lens with a M10-D, the results are convincing. The only issue is that the lens hood is not included and has to be bought separately.