The end of APS-C and m4/3 cameras ?

[nicci78]

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Small, relatively cheap full frame cameras + Small quite cheap and competent lenses. 
 

Is it the end of APS-C and m4/3 ? Not because of incompetence. But because of lack of interest from manufacturers. 
 

Almost no new APS-C lenses from anyone. No new APS-C and m4/3 sensors from Sony Semi. 
That means that hypothetical CL2 won’t get sensor upgrade in the future. Stuck at 24MP forever? Or using of the shelf 26MP BSI APS-C. A mere upgrade to current 24MP. Not even worthing the trouble. 
 

We are forced to choose full frame. Not by choice, but by lack of any real alternative. 

 

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[mike3996]

Just like the film days then? 135 was the only consumer option, the rest were niche.

[Boojay]

Well the answer from Fuji is no, with their new 50mm f/1, they think the market is still alive and kicking obviously.

 

[FrozenInTime]

The Leica CL is half the weight of the S5 and the lenses much more compact. 

micro4/3 is probably dead though ; they spent too much effort trying to make FF equivalence by creating large fast lenses while forsaking the smaller cameras and lenses. 

Killing the pen-F range was a mistake. Launching the  G100 without IBIS , necessitating a large crop for video , just wrong.

Edited September 3, 2020 by FrozenInTime

[nicci78]

Of course Fujifilm will say such thing. 
X mount can not accommodate 24x36 sensor. 
So they are stuck with APS-C 

But just look at Olympus and Panasonic m4/3. They have hit a ceiling with 20MP sensor. If Sony is not willing to developed better one. This is the end of the road.
Same with Fujifilm. What if Sony never released anything better than 26MP? Fuji will be screwed too. 

Edited September 3, 2020 by nicci78

[nicci78]

It is worrying to see that Sony is controlling the photo market, through its semiconductors subsidiary. 
If not willing to go further in m4/3 sensor tech ? You are dead. 
If not with APS-C too ? Dead too. 
1 inch sensor is capped at 20MP forever. I guess that its future is kinda dead to. 
 

Only Canon is free to do whatever, with their own sensor factories. That’s why they are the only one with 32.5 MP 1.6x crop APS-C sensor. 
 

It is clear that Sony Semiconductors agenda is to upsell everybody to full frame sensors. 
Bigger sensors = bigger revenue. 
No real incentive to produce small and cheap APS-C and m4/3 ones. 
 

They kind of succeed. Everybody is trying to make small 24x36 cameras. I am pretty sure that they will be able to make smaller bodies in near future. Matching smallest APS-C or maybe even smallest m4/3 ? 
How ? With global shutter sensor. Getting rid of focal plane shutter is the key to smallness. Just like mighty Sigma fp. 
 

 

Edited September 3, 2020 by nicci78

[jankap]

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Smart phone sensors will win, willn´t they. All other equipment will go into the bin.

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It’s not all about higher megapixel counts. Yes, there will be be new models chasing higher resolutions - for example, Sony’s A7R series went from 36.3 Mpx to 42.4 Mpx to 61 Mpx - but not all new cameras are chasing resolution - Sony’s A7S series has stayed at a lowly 12 Mpx. 

And it’s not all about sensor size. My APS-C cameras provide more compact kits, useful for travel, bushwalking, or discreet use in the city. I certainly don’t always need the large files I get with high resolutions. 

I’m unlikely to buy anything in M43 now; I liked the Pen-F, but Olympus has moved away from that. Nonetheless, I know there is huge enthusiasm for what’s happening in that space. The crop factor is very helpful for the birders and wildlife shooters I know; their arms enjoy the lighter weight of their longest lenses. 💪🎈

Nobody can guarantee that any system will still be around in a few years. Maybe M43 will die. Maybe some APS-C systems will wither. Who knows which 24x36 systems will come to nowt.

But before then, let’s just enjoy making images with whatever equipment we have.

[Tailwagger]

While I do agree that Sony dominance does represent a serious threat, it should be pointed out that if they were the only sensor manufacturer, there'd be no M nor SL, let alone any Canons or Panasonics.  If there is sufficient demand for smaller sensors, it will be filled. It wouldn't be all that surprising to see Samsung step back in to the APS-C market if they smelled a serious opening. Regardless, I don't think either format is going away anytime soon, but if one does disappear, it's far more likely to be 4/3s.  Panasonic, however, does not seem to be ready to let that happen. APS-C, in my view, will certainly be with us for a long time to come.

What seems entirely lost in this thread is the fact that APS-C sensors are found outside of mirrorless applications.  Despite all the obituaries, DSLRs are nowhere near dead yet and those wed to producing them continue to release DX cameras across a wide range of price points.  It should also be pointed out that when those same manufacturers finally entered the mirrorless market they chose to introduce APS-C versions as well.

Collectively we get to decide. It comes down to what gets bought and what doesn't.  There are strong arguments for sensors sizes smaller (and larger) than FF,  just like there are for sedans over SUVs. One might be cannibalizing sales of the other at the moment, but these things have a way of shifting over time. A decade from now, it may turn out that exactly the opposite happens and FF, with its need for far heavier optics, winds up losing as too few are willing lug around the gear necessary.  If it weren't for the M, I'd probably be shooting a Fuji or along side my SL2 given the weight and size penalties one incurs shooting fast primes, mirrorless or DSLR.  The A7/S5 might give APS-C bodies a run for their money in terms of dimensions and mass, but the optics will have a very difficult, if not impossible, time duplicating that feat.   

 

[carbon_dragon]

Well back in the day, half frame cameras (like the Olympus Pens) were killed off by smaller full frame (35mm) cameras like Rolleis and Minoxes and so on. And the quality was inferior. I don't think this same situation applies here. APS-C and Micro 4/3 cameras do have smaller sensors and that does probably have some negative effects but people making those cameras have shown that they can create high MP sensors that create results very similar to the full frame equivalents. And even though RX-1s and Leica Qs have shown that cameras with full frame sensors are getting smaller, there are penalties to be payed for that (mostly fixed lenses and cost). I think they'll be around for a while. Just my opinion though.

[lct]

Well when i used my Rollei 35 SE i could hardly tell a difference with my M4-2 with 35/2 v4 IQ wise and sometimes i preferred the Rollei. We could use compact FF cameras then, i mean real ones like the Rollei or the film CL. What a cute little camera! I would dream to have a FF digital camera like that but it will never happen i fear. FWIW my feeling is people want small cameras more and more but they don't want to make compromise in IQ. APS-H and APS-C do/did allow for that with the advantage of smaller lenses than FF ones. One of the main reasons why i don't use much my gorgeous but heavy M 75/1.4  is the digital CL with the gorgeous and little Sonnar 50/1.5. Now APS-C cannot replace FF the same way as FF cannot replace MF. Digital did not change that. Remains 4/3... i thought it wouldn't live more than a couple of years but i was obviously wrong. 

[Tailwagger]

Aaahh... the Rollei 35.  Proof that size does matter, but the arrow points in either direction depending on what you consider important.  Astonishing that it swallows a can of film, yet displaces similar volume to the Distagon ZM 1.4.  

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[Matlock]

15 hours ago, carbon_dragon said:

Well back in the day, half frame cameras (like the Olympus Pens) were killed off by smaller full frame (35mm) cameras like Rolleis and Minoxes and so on. And the quality was inferior. 

Remember that the Rollei was available with 3 lenses. Triotar, Tessar or Sonnar. There was a vast difference in picture quality between the Triotar and the other two.

[ramarren]

3 minutes ago, Matlock said:

Remember that the Rollei was available with 3 lenses. Triotar, Tessar or Sonnar. There was a vast difference in picture quality between the Triotar and the other two.

The Triotar 40mm was only fitted to the Rollei 35B, 35C, and 35LED. These were plastic chassis, inexpensive cameras that only looked like the classic, metal chassis Rollei 35s, which had Tessar 40mm and Sonnar 40mm lenses of excellent quality. 

[Matlock]

46 minutes ago, ramarren said:

The Triotar 40mm was only fitted to the Rollei 35B, 35C, and 35LED. These were plastic chassis, inexpensive cameras that only looked like the classic, metal chassis Rollei 35s, which had Tessar 40mm and Sonnar 40mm lenses of excellent quality. 

Very true. The 35C is now quite rare as few were made. I also have a 35 with a Xenar lens which is well up to the standard of the Tessar.

[nicci78]

Just like Olympus before them. Fujifilm is now trying to fight equivalency. 
So now we have a huge 75mm f/1.5 equivalent lens for X mount. 
But it is bigger than full frame DG DN 85mm f/1.4

Just like Olympus got lost with huge 35, 50 & 90mm f/2.4 equivalent lenses. 
 

Equivalency is really cruel to APS-C and even more to m4/3.
Making f/1 lenses to only get f/1.5 equivalent for Fuji.   
And f/1.2 to get a mundane f/2.4 for Olympus.
It does not even worth it. Better buy a small full frame mirrorless and stick a small prime upon it. 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by nicci78

[jaapv]

22 hours ago, nicci78 said:

It is worrying to see that Sony is controlling the photo market, through its semiconductors subsidiary. 
If not willing to go further in m4/3 sensor tech ? You are dead. 
If not with APS-C too ? Dead too. 
1 inch sensor is capped at 20MP forever. I guess that its future is kinda dead to. 
 

Only Canon is free to do whatever, with their own sensor factories. That’s why they are the only one with 32.5 MP 1.6x crop APS-C sensor. 
 

It is clear that Sony Semiconductors agenda is to upsell everybody to full frame sensors. 
Bigger sensors = bigger revenue. 
No real incentive to produce small and cheap APS-C and m4/3 ones. 
 

They kind of succeed. Everybody is trying to make small 24x36 cameras. I am pretty sure that they will be able to make smaller bodies in near future. Matching smallest APS-C or maybe even smallest m4/3 ? 
How ? With global shutter sensor. Getting rid of focal plane shutter is the key to smallness. Just like mighty Sigma fp. 
 

 

Which only means that they will be able to make even more compact APS systems in the future. The real challenge lies in the size of the lenses. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

So now we have a huge 75mm f/1.5 equivalent lens for X mount.

To each his own equivalencies . Doing 75/1 indoor is something Leica can only approach at stratospheric price level with the 75/1.25 Noctilux. And this with AF and aperture ring please. No FF gear can do that.

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Hallo,

Look here: Leica L-Mount

[nicci78]

Fujifilm tried to get 85mm f/1.8 equivalency with 56mm f/1.2

And now they aimed at 75mm f/1.5 with 50mm f/1. 
But being bigger and heavier than Sigma full frame 85mm f/1.4 is just disappointing. 
The extra one stop of light is lost by APS-C smaller size sensor. 
You can get 26MP at best with current 1.5x crop APS-C. Whereas you can get 60MP with 24x36. 
 

It is even more a confession that full frame shallow depth of field is the ultimate goal of the system. 
Which means that is may be just easier to buy a full frame in the first place. 

[Einst_Stein]

2 hours ago, jaapv said:

Which only means that they will be able to make even more compact APS systems in the future. The real challenge lies in the size of the lenses. 

Agree. 

Although smaller sensor no longer (at all) means smaller camera body of price tag (soon, as semiconductor tech improves, the volume is the king), it does imply smaller lens. 

And, when lens is larger, so would be the camera body just to keep the balance.