The end of APS-C and m4/3 cameras ?

[jaapv]

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2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Fujifilm tried to get 85mm f/1.8 equivalency with 56mm f/1.2

And now they aimed at 75mm f/1.5 with 50mm f/1. 
But being bigger and heavier than Sigma full frame 85mm f/1.4 is just disappointing. 
The extra one stop of light is lost by APS-C smaller size sensor. 
You can get 26MP at best with current 1.5x crop APS-C. Whereas you can get 60MP with 24x36. 
 

It is even more a confession that full frame shallow depth of field is the ultimate goal of the system. 
Which means that is may be just easier to buy a full frame in the first place. 

 Camera makers build cameras for the general public. Shallow DOF is of minor interest to 85% of their target customer base The average buyer will be more interested in size, price, features and brand image. Things that are big issues on Internet forums are of little importance in the camera store. 

[lct]

2 hours ago, nicci78 said:

And now they aimed at 75mm f/1.5 with 50mm f/1.

What's f/1.5? The lens is a glorious f/1 so i would not aim at anything else than f/1 if i were in their shoes.  

 

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[nicci78]

36 minutes ago, jaapv said:

 Camera makers build cameras for the general public. Shallow DOF is of minor interest to 85% of their target customer base The average buyer will be more interested in size, price, features and brand image. Things that are big issues on Internet forums are of little importance in the camera store. 

Exactly. Fujifilm 50mm f/1 is aimed to those 15% 

 

Their market studies seem to tell them, that general public won’t be interested into dedicated cameras anymore. What’s left ? Those 15% craving for shallow depth of field, impossible to obtain naturally with smartphones. 
 

They are talking about only 4 millions unit per year from 2022. That’s half of 2019 sales. Guess who won’t buy any cameras at all ? The general public. 
In 2022 smartphones should be so good, that nobody will bother with anything else. 

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5 hours ago, nicci78 said:

Just like Olympus before them. Fujifilm is now trying to fight equivalency. 
So now we have a huge 75mm f/1.5 equivalent lens for X mount. 
But it is bigger than full frame DG DN 85mm f/1.4

Just like Olympus got lost with huge 35, 50 & 90mm f/2.4 equivalent lenses. 
 

Equivalency is really cruel to APS-C and even more to m4/3.
Making f/1 lenses to only get f/1.5 equivalent for Fuji.   
And f/1.2 to get a mundane f/2.4 for Olympus.
It does not even worth it. Better buy a small full frame mirrorless and stick a small prime upon it.

The argument that aperture must be adjusted DoF equivalency is only useful for scenarios where a shallow depth of field is wanted, e.g., lazy & unimaginative portraiture and corporate headshots. For may other scenarios, the extra stop of DoF equivalency of APS-C vs 24x36 is either neutral or even useful.

APS-C for a more compact travel kit?  Shallow DoF is not necessarily an advantage.

APS-C for a lighter birding & wildlife kit? Shallow DoF is not necessarily an advantage.

APS-C for a more discreet street kit? Shallow DoF is not necessarily an advantage.

[earleygallery]

I guess a lot of people who get into photography with whatever camera to start with will always aspire to a FF system because they think it's 'better' and that's the line pushed by most of the manufacturers. People love the 'pro' tag too, even though it doesn't really mean anything relevant to them. 

Of course if your business is selling cameras then you're not going to dissuade people from forking out for a FF system when actually even APSC is actually far more than they could ever need.

 

[nicci78]

1 hour ago, Einst_Stein said:

Although smaller sensor no longer (at all) means smaller camera body of price tag (soon, as semiconductor tech improves, the volume is the king), it does imply smaller lens. 

But where is the smaller lenses ??

That’s all the problem. I would love to buy the smaller lenses for my CL. But there are only 11 APS-C lenses in L-mount alliance. Everything else is full frame ! 
In theory, APS-C should yield to smaller lenses. But hypothetical lens is useless to me. 
Leica is not invested anymore into the TL lenses business. 
 

What’s left for CL ? Being a 1.5x teleconverter only ? Handy for long focal length for sure. But a nightmare in ultra wide angle with lack of proper lens. 

Even as teleconverter, the days of APS-C is counted. Being stuck to 24 or 26MP, make them redundant against full frame 47MP (crop mode at 20MP) and 60MP (crop mode at 26MP) 

 

Please bring more APS-C lenses  or kill the system and provide us small full frame bodies and lenses instead. 
I guess that most manufacturers already made their mind about that  

 

[ramarren]

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7 hours ago, Matlock said:

Very true. The 35C is now quite rare as few were made. I also have a 35 with a Xenar lens which is well up to the standard of the Tessar.

Off topic, but there is an short history to the Schneider Xenar 40mm f/3.5 lens on Rollei 35T ... Essentially, Rollei was looking to shave a little off the price of the camera and Schneider offered a lens to match the Zeiss Tessar (which Rollei had already shaved some money off the cost of by writing a deal with Zeiss NOT to put the brand name on the lens bezel!). However, it seemed that either Schneider couldn't make enough of them at the price, or Rollei found too many difficulties with the lens assemblies in quality testing, so only a small number were built and the deal was dropped. All of them came out of the Singapore facility. (from my poor translation of the Klaus Prochnow "Rollei 35 Family" book...)

And now back to the usual Leica stuff...  

G

Edited September 4, 2020 by ramarren

[lct]

42 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Please bring more APS-C lenses  or kill the system and provide us small full frame bodies and lenses instead.

Or wait for others to make compact APS-C lenses. Isn't this what Sigma is doing in the L alliance? Just curious as i don't follow the matter closely.

[ramarren]

48 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

But where is the smaller lenses ??

That’s all the problem. I would love to buy the smaller lenses for my CL. But there are only 11 APS-C lenses in L-mount alliance. Everything else is full frame ! 
In theory, APS-C should yield to smaller lenses. But hypothetical lens is useless to me. 
Leica is not invested anymore into the TL lenses business. 
 

What’s left for CL ? Being a 1.5x teleconverter only ? Handy for long focal length for sure. But a nightmare in ultra wide angle with lack of proper lens. 

Even as teleconverter, the days of APS-C is counted. Being stuck to 24 or 26MP, make them redundant against full frame 47MP (crop mode at 20MP) and 60MP (crop mode at 26MP) 

 

Please bring more APS-C lenses  or kill the system and provide us small full frame bodies and lenses instead. 
I guess that most manufacturers already made their mind about that  

This long whinge for more lenses begs some questions: How many lenses does a photographer really need? And how many different lenses are going to be profitable to manufacture? Designing and tooling up to manufacture a lens is a hugely expensive undertaking ... it takes the sales of thousands of lenses to pay for it if you want to keep the price per lens at a reasonable level. How much are you willing to pay for each small, fast lens ... as much as you would for a Leica M lens, or more (there are more things needed for a full TL series lens)?And how many other people do you suppose might also want to spend that amount of money per lens? This is, after all, a business that depends upon its profitability for survival. 

G

[nicci78]

Actually each photographer does not need lots of lenses. But we are all different. So each one of us will have a different mix. 
Hence the need of many choices.  
It is not by chance, that most grown up system can provide 40 different optics at least. 
It will be easier for any manufacturer to only release 10. But I guess that it won’t be enough. 

Leica put itself in the situation of spreading thin its ressources among too many lens mounts.   
Their fault. They should start any mount, only if they can provide a complete system. Not a half baked one. 

 

 

Edited September 4, 2020 by nicci78

[nicci78]

Hopefully those primes seem small and fast enough for the CL. 
24mm f/1.8 =  36mm f/2.7 (eq. DoF)  
35mm f/1.8 =  53mm f/2.7    
50mm f/1.8 =  75mm f/2.7   
85mm f/1.8 = 128mm f/2.7
 

I was almost ready to buy Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG DN = 128mm f/2.1     
But I will wait to compare it to the new Lumix S primes. 

 

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[ramarren]

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

The range of TL lenses, zooms and primes, currently available fit the APS-C Leica cameras beautifully and comprise a full system that satisfies perhaps 90% of the users. It's not a huge system but it's enough for most of the expected market audience. For those that want something more, they can get full-function native features from the SL lens line, or from the Panasonic and Sigma lens lines for L mount now being created. They can get excellent adapted functionality from the Leica M and R lens lines as well, and in addition to that from Voigtländer and Zeiss M-mount lines, other independent lens makers, etc etc. 

Being so inflexible in your demands doesn't help your cause or your photography. 

G

[ruskkyle]

1 hour ago, ramarren said:

"Methinks thou dost protest too much."

If you’re going to use a quote to aid your put-down you could at least get the quote right.

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44 minutes ago, nicci78 said:

Hopefully those primes seem small and fast enough for the CL. 
24mm f/1.8 =  36mm f/2.7 (eq. DoF)  
35mm f/1.8 =  53mm f/2.7    
50mm f/1.8 =  75mm f/2.7   
85mm f/1.8 = 128mm f/2.7
 

I was almost ready to buy Sigma 85mm F1.4 DG DN = 128mm f/2.1     
But I will wait to compare it to the new Lumix S primes. 

 

Don’t wait for the Panasonic 85mm f/1.8. It is even slower than the Sigma. 😱 

You would be disappointed with the LUMIX S. For some reason the exposure is always out by a stop despite adjusting the nominal aperture to reflect the true equivalent value. And to make things worse, the LUMIX S will be larger than you want because Panasonic have designed it to match its 24x36 bodies instead of the APS-C bodies they don’t make!

Hold your breath until Leica does the right thing and releases the Noctilux-T 85mm f0.95 ASPH to give you the shallow DoF that you need - as a bonus, I’ve heard a rumour that it’ll be pancake. 😎

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5 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

If you’re going to use a quote to aid your put-down you could at least get the quote right.

[OT]As nicci78 identifies as a male, referring to him as the lady doesn’t really work.[/OT]

[ramarren]

23 minutes ago, ruskkyle said:

If you’re going to use a quote to aid your put-down you could at least get the quote right.

 

16 minutes ago, AdHox said:

[OT]As nicci78 identifies as a male, referring to him as the lady doesn’t really work.[/OT]

I have no idea what either of you are talking about. I wasn't quoting, nor was I assigning a gender. I just used quotes to set the sentence off as related to some famous phrase, tongue-in-cheek. If I was quoting, I'd have included an attribution. 

On the other hand, anything to relieve the boredom of listening to this never-ending whine about needing more and more lenses or Doom Is Upon Us! is fine by me.  

G

"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension

Edited September 4, 2020 by ramarren

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8 minutes ago, ramarren said:

 

I have no idea what either of you are talking about. 

[OT]I think russkyle thought you were referencing “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” from Hamlet, Act III Scene 2.[/OT]

Edited September 4, 2020 by AdHox
[OT/]

[ramarren]

1 minute ago, AdHox said:

I think russkyle thought you were referencing “The lady doth protest too much, methinks” from Hamlet, Act III Scene 2.

Likely. I wasn't. 

[AdHox]

28 minutes ago, ramarren said:

I have no idea what either of you are talking about. I wasn't quoting, nor was I assigning a gender. I just used quotes to set the sentence off as related to some famous phrase, tongue-in-cheek. If I was quoting, I'd have included an attribution. 

On the other hand, anything to relieve the boredom of listening to this never-ending whine about needing more and more lenses or Doom Is Upon Us! is fine by me.  

G

"No matter where you go, there you are." - Buckaroo Banzai Across the Eighth Dimension

[OT]Shakespeare’s writing provided the English language with so many words and common phrases that it’s easy to overlook just how much of the Bard’s work we know. I found it quite challenging the first time I read some of his plays because they were so full of cliches - the chap’s writing was so over-rated! - until I remembered that the cliches were new when the plays were written and aren’t recorded in earlier literature.[/OT]

As for the problems with lenses - too few, too slow, too large, too expensive, too whatever - it’s the internet. Being content is a not permitted.

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Hallo,

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[bags27]

2 minutes ago, AdHox said:

[OT]Shakespeare’s writing provided the English language with so many words and common phrases that it’s easy to overlook just how much of the Bard’s work we know. I found it quite challenging the first time I read some of his plays because they were so full of cliches - the chap’s writing was so over-rated! - until I remembered that the cliches were new when the plays were written and aren’t recorded in earlier literature.[/OT]

As for the problems with lenses - too few, too slow, too large, too expensive, too whatever - it’s the internet. Being content is a not permitted.

+1

I find the lenses very mediocre. That's the entire reason why I'm a mediocre photographer....